Tunney & The Absence Of Black Fighters On His Resume.

[Willie Pep 229]

I get all that. What don't get is how the money was ok to fight guys Greb had already beaten. And thank you, I wasn't quite sure if 1922 was the year of the phoney contract for Wills. Again Queenie is caught not knowing what he's talking about. As stated earlier, I don't blame Dempsey per say, but it is a stain on his career. Does that take away from his accomplishments? Heck no. But it's relevant history when talking boxing.

You're correct, in a sense the money wasn't there.

Kearns was promised by Shelby 300K plus a percentage for Gibbons and fell way short.

Brennan had had a ten win run leading up the the Dempsey fight (1920) which got him the shot. But Dempsey only made 105K for the fight (MSG) and Rickard claimed it was the only fight he ever promoted that lost money.

It's not until the "Million Dollar Gate" (1.6 million) against Carpentier in 1921 did the big money start to appear.

In the case of Gibbons, Shelby wanted a local boy (Minnesota was as close as they could come). As with Brennan (See below) feather-fisted Greb couldn't hurt Gibbons.

From Box Rec: "...Greb threw a million punches but never hurt Gibbons as he seldom set [himself]

Greb won four decisions over Brennan but they were NWS decision. With two of them coming in Pittsburgh and one in Tulsa (a second venue common to Greb).

Plus, as I have said before, Greb was feather-fisted and never really could hurt Brennan. So his wins didn't exactly excite the crowd into thinking he could stop Dempsey.

Up until 1926, Tunney-Dempsey (I) the HW Champion had always changed hands via a KO.

Billy Miske also had two NWS losses to Greb, but both again in Pittsburgh. Greb again as with with Brennan, couldn't hurt Miske. Miske never tasted the canvas until his second go with Dempsey.

When people thought about who should get the next shot at the title they weren't excited by the prospect of a feather fisted MW taking the title by a decision win.

In the 1920s people wanted fights not boxing matches. It's one of the reasons why Tunney never clicked with the crowd.


P.S. Miske and promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons were friends of Dempsey and Dempsey was sharing the wealth with his buddies. The Miske defense was Dempsey very first defense after beating Willard and Fitzsimmons promoted the fight. Champions are allowed one of these types of defense, it's traditional.

[JAB5239]

You're correct, in a sense the money wasn't there.

Kearns was promised by Shelby 300K plus a percentage for Gibbons and fell way short.

Brennan had had a ten win run leading up the the Dempsey fight (1920) which got him the shot. But Dempsey only made 105K for the fight (MSG) and Rickard claimed it was the only fight he ever promoted that lost money.

It's not until the "Million Dollar Gate" (1.6 million) against Carpentier in 1921 did the big money start to appear.

In the case of Gibbons, Shelby wanted a local boy (Minnesota was as close as they could come). As with Brennan (See below) feather-fisted Greb couldn't hurt Gibbons.

From Box Rec: "...Greb threw a million punches but never hurt Gibbons as he seldom set [himself]

Greb won four decisions over Brennan but they were NWS decision. With two of them coming in Pittsburgh and one in Tulsa (a second venue common to Greb).

Plus, as I have said before, Greb was feather-fisted and never really could hurt Brennan. So his wins didn't exactly excite the crowd into thinking he could stop Dempsey.

Up until 1926, Tunney-Dempsey (I) the HW Champion had always changed hands via a KO.

Billy Miske also had two NWS losses to Greb, but both again in Pittsburgh. Greb again as with with Brennan, couldn't hurt Miske. Miske never tasted the canvas until his second go with Dempsey.

When people thought about who should get the next shot at the title they weren't excited by the prospect of a feather fisted MW taking the title by a decision win.

In the 1920s people wanted fights not boxing matches. It's one of the reasons why Tunney never clicked with the crowd.


P.S. Miske and promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons were friends of Dempsey and Dempsey was sharing the wealth with his buddies. The Miske defense was Dempsey very first defense after beating Willard and Fitzsimmons promoted the fight. Champions are allowed one of these types of defense, it's traditional.

Next, he'll run roughshod over Dempsey for the heavyweight crown. (They never fought officialy, but unofflciallv they did-in the training ring and Dempsey did so badly that when Promoter Charley Murray tried to match them, Jack Kearns, Demp-sey's manager, said, "No, thanks. We want no traffic with that Seven-Year Itch.")

Dempsey Will Box Greb After Tour

Newspaper Article Info

Manager Kearns Says They Will Meet Outdoors in Philadelphia in 8-Round Bout.

"Dempsey will probably return home in time to take on Harry Greb in an eight-round, no-decision affair outdoors in Philadelphia. I am reliably told the public really wants the affair to be brought off, and we would like to see Harry make some money, even if he gets mussed up a bit in doing it, to convince him that the best middleweight isn't heavy enough for the big fellow in the game."

I'm not refuting your research, only posting some of the stuff ive found in the past. According to Dempsey there was demand for the fight, especially after a newspaper article headlined "Greb makes Dempsey look like a kitten" after their sparring sessions. Kearns as always was wishy-washy. At one point he wanted to make the fight, then he says "no thanks, we want no traffic with that seven year itch".

[Willie Pep 229]

Next, he'll run roughshod over Dempsey for the heavyweight crown. (They never fought officialy, but unofflciallv they did-in the training ring and Dempsey did so badly that when Promoter Charley Murray tried to match them, Jack Kearns, Demp-sey's manager, said, "No, thanks. We want no traffic with that Seven-Year Itch.")

Dempsey Will Box Greb After Tour

Newspaper Article Info

Manager Kearns Says They Will Meet Outdoors in Philadelphia in 8-Round Bout.

"Dempsey will probably return home in time to take on Harry Greb in an eight-round, no-decision affair outdoors in Philadelphia. I am reliably told the public really wants the affair to be brought off, and we would like to see Harry make some money, even if he gets mussed up a bit in doing it, to convince him that the best middleweight isn't heavy enough for the big fellow in the game."

I'm not refuting your research, only posting some of the stuff ive found in the past. According to Dempsey there was demand for the fight, especially after a newspaper article headlined "Greb makes Dempsey look like a kitten" after their sparring sessions. Kearns as always was wishy-washy. At one point he wanted to make the fight, then he says "no thanks, we want no traffic with that seven year itch".

Yes I mentioned that same article above. Kearns made that announcement just after NYSAC made their threat. I don't believe Kearns was doing anything but teaching New York the lesson that he didn't need them. Never intended to make that fight.

The NYSAC had also cost New York City the Tunney-Dempsey 1926 fight after trying to force Wills onto Rickard as well.

I don't believe what reporters say about what happened in the sparring session. Probably exaggerated; Dempsey was always a mensch when it came to claiming fighters were better than him.

Anyway we will probably always disagree about this one. CW is on your side, it is the popular opinion but I just don't buy it. I think Kearns was running his own agenda.

P.S. That sparring session you are speaking of took place (I believe) leading up to the Miske defense 1920.

They had Greb on the undercard and he was not yet a sensation (had not beaten Tunney yet) so building Greb up was probably on the agenda as well.

[mrbig1]

You know Dempsey and Tunney never defend their title against black fighters. Jack Johnson didn't either. Instead, he fought white fighters half his size. Jack Sharkey fought Harry Wills in 1926. Why did Sharkey get that fight and Jack and Gene couldn't?

[QueensburyRules]

My point again was when did he try to make a fight in 1922? Was that the fight with the phoney contract? Exhibition or not, he didn't fight Wills, did he? Wouldn't fight Greb either, but had no problem fighting his leftover ers.

- - Promoters make fights and mgrs make deals with promoters.

U make up play dough figureens.

[JAB5239]

- - Promoters make fights and mgrs make deals with promoters.

U make up play dough figureens.

You mad you got caught making things up again?

[Willie Pep 229]

You know Dempsey and Tunney never defend their title against black fighters. Jack Johnson didn't either. Instead, he fought white fighters half his size. Jack Sharkey fought Harry Wills in 1926. Why did Sharkey get that fight and Jack and Gene couldn't?

Mainly because Sharkey wasn't champion.

A week after Tunney defeated Dempsey in 1926 Tex Rickard started making noise that he would put together a Dempsey-Wills fight next summer at the (reasonably new Yankee Stadium).

Since Wills was a shot fighter, it was Sharkey who got the Dempsey fight instead.

Rickard had promoted several 'mixed bouts' but it was the HW Title that was always the color-line sticking point.

P.S. In Philadelphia, after the decision was announced the crowd of 126,000 began chanting Dempsey's name. Dempsey had become more popular in defeat than ever before. Rickard knew he had another sell out fight even with Dempsey losing and was now willing to risk Dempsey losing to Wills since the title was not at stake.

P.S.S. To show how F-up this whole color line thing was. Rickard who as I said above was now willing to discuss a possible Dempsey-Wills fight since Dempsey was no longer champion, was also talking about arranging an elimination tournament for a shot at the new champion Tunney, (with some of the bouts possibly being in England) with Tunney's manager Billy Gibson.

Rickard dropped a few names and then added that Wills would be barred from the tournament. No explanation, only that Wills would not be included.

Was it Tunney-Gibson, the HW Title that got in the way or the fact that Wills was a shot fighter? Who knows.

We do know that Paddy Mullins, after Tunney defeated Dempsey, stated something to the affect, 'we chased Dempsey for years for nothing, we're not even going to try with Tunney.'

[them_apples]

You know Dempsey and Tunney never defend their title against black fighters. Jack Johnson didn't either. Instead, he fought white fighters half his size. Jack Sharkey fought Harry Wills in 1926. Why did Sharkey get that fight and Jack and Gene couldn't?

They wouldn’t fight blacks cause it was actually bad for their image back in the day. Thats the number one reason. Boxing was still all about money. Obviously this is the past and seems ignorant in the current phase of society but back then it made sense.

that being said well never know what happened. What we do know is Greb fought all the blacks because he was busy being ducked himself. From my understanding though, Tunney was a really good fighter, one of the best fighters. Smart and would find ways to adapt and win. Dempsey I believe is likely a bit overated.

[Ivich]

You know Dempsey and Tunney never defend their title against black fighters. Jack Johnson didn't either. Instead, he fought white fighters half his size. Jack Sharkey fought Harry Wills in 1926. Why did Sharkey get that fight and Jack and Gene couldn't?

Johnson defended against Battling Jim Johnson in Paris.
Among the white opponents he fought are;
Ferguson six feet three and a half 215lbs. multiple times
Moran six feet one 205lbs
Kaufman six feet one 191lbs
Jeffords six feet four 215lbs
Russell six feet three21
Taylor six feet one 203lbs
Willard six feet six and a quarter 238 1/2lbs

[QueensburyRules]

Mainly because Sharkey wasn't champion.

A week after Tunney defeated Dempsey in 1926 Tex Rickard started making noise that he would put together a Dempsey-Wills fight next summer at the (reasonably new Yankee Stadium).

Since Wills was a shot fighter, it was Sharkey who got the Dempsey fight instead.

Rickard had promoted several 'mixed bouts' but it was the HW Title that was always the color-line sticking point.

P.S. In Philadelphia, after the decision was announced the crowd of 126,000 began chanting Dempsey's name. Dempsey had become more popular in defeat than ever before. Rickard knew he had another sell out fight even with Dempsey losing and was now willing to risk Dempsey losing to Wills since the title was not at stake.

P.S.S. To show how F-up this whole color line thing was. Rickard who as I said above was now willing to discuss a possible Dempsey-Wills fight since Dempsey was no longer champion, was also talking about arranging an elimination tournament for a shot at the new champion Tunney, (with some of the bouts possibly being in England) with Tunney's manager Billy Gibson.

Rickard dropped a few names and then added that Wills would be barred from the tournament. No explanation, only that Wills would not be included.

Was it Tunney-Gibson, the HW Title that got in the way or the fact that Wills was a shot fighter? Who knows.

We do know that Paddy Mullins, after Tunney defeated Dempsey, stated something to the affect, 'we chased Dempsey for years for nothing, we're not even going to try with Tunney.'

- - Wills also refused to fight Tunney in the Rickard eliminator for the right to fight Dempsey.

When I first commented on a boxing board, it was to lay to rest some nonsense about Ali. That Rocky ducked Liston and Dempsey ducked Wills ruled the dialogue, but eventually Boxrec came along where timelines could be tracked and histories could be found that proved the dummies were dummies...yup, and we still have dummies on this forum.