Harry Greb, the true Goat

[them_apples]

There is a great 700 page volume on Greb for sale on amazon. It is a great book, highly detailed. It gives a good account of what it was like being a fighter at the turn of the century. Fighters often had very short careers but fought frequently. The details on how gory and ferocious fights were in Grebs day is evident. Some fighters would absolutely refuse to quit.

When making a list of the greatest boxers of all time p4p it usually involves these names:

Langford
Armstrong
Robinson
Greb

Out of all 4, Greb according to the records may have the best case of being the true goat of boxing, with Langford a close second. While the threads name is bait, this thread is really just discussion.

Why is Greb arguably the greatest?

He fought 40+ times a year

In his time he took advantage of the lax regulations and would fight up to 45+ times a year. Out of 300 bouts, Greb has 16 registered losses but only about 3 of them are legitimate losses where 2 of them came when he was totally green and taking on a very experienced opponent. Greg’s early career showed him no mercy, with just a few bouts under his belt he was taking on serious contenders. The only other guy to beat him is the great Tommy Gibbons, whome he avenged. Any of Greb losses he avenged sometimes numerous times. Out of 300 bouts Greb hardly ever lost. The reason for the large number of robberies are due to newspaper decisions.

He was ducked by many, forcing him to fight black fighters

Because he was so dangerous many would blatantly duck him saying he wasn’t worth the money. He would take on black fighters that were also avoided but also bigger than he. Beating kid Norfolk (losing an eye and putting Norfolk in the hospital) and Jack Blackburn among a few others

He could beat those even more skillful than him

Due to the way Greb trained, putting an emphasis on sparring and fighting constantly, Grebs fitness was considered inhuman. For those that could beat him for 5-6 rounds found the pace to be exhausting. This is another way he would beat heavyweights (while weighing only 170 lbs).

His style was perpetual motion

Meaning one movement would simple start another movement. Once he got started he wouldn’t stop. According to him, he tired faster if he stopped throwing punches. I believe Armstrong employed the same tactic. As a youth he had a job carrying metal sheet roof up ladders all day. Giving him insane leg power - his legs were like springs.

He beat the dog**** out of Dempsey and Tunney.

Dempsey Ducked him, almost unapologetically that’s how one sided the thrashing Greb dished out on Dempsey. Dempsey was unable to hit Greb whilst being overwhelmed. They sparred twice and both times were the same result.

Then Greb fought Tunney, putting him in the hospital. In the rematch, Greb once again beat on Tunney - however this time points were being taken off of Greb for fouls and the bout was awarded a draw. By the third fight, Greb is blind in one eye, his entire body is breaking down.

By Grebs own account, he fought in a very tough era

Before ww1 there were many hard fighters lurking around, they went on to be competitive into the 20’s. When the war started, The ranks began thinning - this is when Greb really started to massacre everyone, even heavyweights - given the competition had been halved due to the war. In reality Greb was in a different class than a guy like Dempsey.

Much Like Robinson, who also was supremely talented, but also campaigned during ww2 - which once again thinned the ranks of boxing. The early 1900’s and the mid 20’s to the 30’s were very stacked competitive eras. So while we have 2 stand out talents, both of them also came along at ideal times. Greb went 80-0, Robinson managed 95-0.

Greb however beat the best of his era, and the next era as well.

[kara]

There is a great 700 page volume on Greb for sale on amazon. It is a great book, highly detailed. It gives a good account of what it was like being a fighter at the turn of the century. Fighters often had very short careers but fought frequently. The details on how gory and ferocious fights were in Grebs day is evident. Some fighters would absolutely refuse to quit.

When making a list of the greatest boxers of all time p4p it usually involves these names:

Langford
Armstrong
Robinson
Greb

Out of all 4, Greb according to the records may have the best case of being the true goat of boxing, with Langford a close second. While the threads name is bait, this thread is really just discussion.

Why is Greb arguably the greatest?

He fought 40+ times a year

In his time he took advantage of the lax regulations and would fight up to 45+ times a year. Out of 300 bouts, Greb has 16 registered losses but only about 3 of them are legitimate losses where 2 of them came when he was totally green and taking on a very experienced opponent. Greg�s early career showed him no mercy, with just a few bouts under his belt he was taking on serious contenders. The only other guy to beat him is the great Tommy Gibbons, whome he avenged. Any of Greb losses he avenged sometimes numerous times. Out of 300 bouts Greb hardly ever lost. The reason for the large number of robberies are due to newspaper decisions.

He was ducked by many, forcing him to fight black fighters

Because he was so dangerous many would blatantly duck him saying he wasn�t worth the money. He would take on black fighters that were also avoided but also bigger than he. Beating kid Norfolk (losing an eye and putting Norfolk in the hospital) and Jack Blackburn among a few others

He could beat those even more skillful than him

Due to the way Greb trained, putting an emphasis on sparring and fighting constantly, Grebs fitness was considered inhuman. For those that could beat him for 5-6 rounds found the pace to be exhausting. This is another way he would beat heavyweights (while weighing only 170 lbs).

His style was perpetual motion

Meaning one movement would simple start another movement. Once he got started he wouldn�t stop. According to him, he tired faster if he stopped throwing punches. I believe Armstrong employed the same tactic. As a youth he had a job carrying metal sheet roof up ladders all day. Giving him insane leg power - his legs were like springs.

He beat the dog**** out of Dempsey and Tunney.

Dempsey Ducked him, almost unapologetically that�s how one sided the thrashing Greb dished out on Dempsey. Dempsey was unable to hit Greb whilst being overwhelmed. They sparred twice and both times were the same result.

Then Greb fought Tunney, putting him in the hospital. In the rematch, Greb once again beat on Tunney - however this time points were being taken off of Greb for fouls and the bout was awarded a draw. By the third fight, Greb is blind in one eye, his entire body is breaking down.

By Grebs own account, he fought in a very tough era

Before ww1 there were many hard fighters lurking around, they went on to be competitive into the 20�s. When the war started, The ranks began thinning - this is when Greb really started to massacre everyone, even heavyweights - given the competition had been halved due to the war. In reality Greb was in a different class than a guy like Dempsey.

Much Like Robinson, who also was supremely talented, but also campaigned during ww2 - which once again thinned the ranks of boxing. The early 1900�s and the mid 20�s to the 30�s were very stacked competitive eras. So while we have 2 stand out talents, both of them also came along at ideal times. Greb went 80-0, Robinson managed 95-0.

Greb however beat the best of his era, and the next era as well.

You raise some solid points for your argument.

[Eff Pandas]

Only boxing fans would suggest a guy who has no footage of him competing is the goat.

[IronDanHamza]

Only boxing fans would suggest a guy who has no footage of him competing is the goat.

History books exist though, right? We don’t question the great warriors of the past and their documented and verified warfare achievements because we haven’t seen them with our own eyes.

Not saying Greb is the GOAT, I agree it’s difficult (and a shame) with no footage but we do know the countless great fighters that he beat. You can’t do that without being a great fighter.

[Slugfester]

Greb would go crazy these days with 6 months between fights. I can't imagine he did much sparring between bouts. What was his longest layoff between fights?

[Dr. Z]

There is a great 700 page volume on Greb for sale on amazon. It is a great book, highly detailed. It gives a good account of what it was like being a fighter at the turn of the century. Fighters often had very short careers but fought frequently. The details on how gory and ferocious fights were in Grebs day is evident. Some fighters would absolutely refuse to quit.

When making a list of the greatest boxers of all time p4p it usually involves these names:

Langford
Armstrong
Robinson
Greb

Out of all 4, Greb according to the records may have the best case of being the true goat of boxing, with Langford a close second. While the threads name is bait, this thread is really just discussion.

Why is Greb arguably the greatest?

He fought 40+ times a year

In his time he took advantage of the lax regulations and would fight up to 45+ times a year. Out of 300 bouts, Greb has 16 registered losses but only about 3 of them are legitimate losses where 2 of them came when he was totally green and taking on a very experienced opponent. Greg�s early career showed him no mercy, with just a few bouts under his belt he was taking on serious contenders. The only other guy to beat him is the great Tommy Gibbons, whome he avenged. Any of Greb losses he avenged sometimes numerous times. Out of 300 bouts Greb hardly ever lost. The reason for the large number of robberies are due to newspaper decisions.

He was ducked by many, forcing him to fight black fighters

Because he was so dangerous many would blatantly duck him saying he wasn�t worth the money. He would take on black fighters that were also avoided but also bigger than he. Beating kid Norfolk (losing an eye and putting Norfolk in the hospital) and Jack Blackburn among a few others

He could beat those even more skillful than him

Due to the way Greb trained, putting an emphasis on sparring and fighting constantly, Grebs fitness was considered inhuman. For those that could beat him for 5-6 rounds found the pace to be exhausting. This is another way he would beat heavyweights (while weighing only 170 lbs).

His style was perpetual motion

Meaning one movement would simple start another movement. Once he got started he wouldn�t stop. According to him, he tired faster if he stopped throwing punches. I believe Armstrong employed the same tactic. As a youth he had a job carrying metal sheet roof up ladders all day. Giving him insane leg power - his legs were like springs.

He beat the dog**** out of Dempsey and Tunney.

Dempsey Ducked him, almost unapologetically that�s how one sided the thrashing Greb dished out on Dempsey. Dempsey was unable to hit Greb whilst being overwhelmed. They sparred twice and both times were the same result.

Then Greb fought Tunney, putting him in the hospital. In the rematch, Greb once again beat on Tunney - however this time points were being taken off of Greb for fouls and the bout was awarded a draw. By the third fight, Greb is blind in one eye, his entire body is breaking down.

By Grebs own account, he fought in a very tough era

Before ww1 there were many hard fighters lurking around, they went on to be competitive into the 20�s. When the war started, The ranks began thinning - this is when Greb really started to massacre everyone, even heavyweights - given the competition had been halved due to the war. In reality Greb was in a different class than a guy like Dempsey.

Much Like Robinson, who also was supremely talented, but also campaigned during ww2 - which once again thinned the ranks of boxing. The early 1900�s and the mid 20�s to the 30�s were very stacked competitive eras. So while we have 2 stand out talents, both of them also came along at ideal times. Greb went 80-0, Robinson managed 95-0.

Greb however beat the best of his era, and the next era as well.

This could be your best post of your that I have read. As great as Greb was, he is also a dirty fighter. A perpetual motion fighting machine who was as rough and tough and never seemed to tire. He took a great punch too, seldom being down in 100+ fights! He could out work any man. And he was lighting quick. Tunney a master thinker and boxer said you have to out punch Greb with power shots, out boxing him is not an option due to his style which few could replicate.

I wish I could see a Greb film.

[Dr. Z]

Only boxing fans would suggest a guy who has no footage of him competing is the goat.

Much is GOATS in history have never been filmed. Greb fought roughly 100 years ago.

[them_apples]

This could be your best post of your that I have read. As great as Greb was, he is also a dirty fighter. A perpetual motion fighting machine who was as rough and tough and never seemed to tire. He took a great punch too, seldom being down in 100+ fights! He could out work any man. And he was lighting quick. Tunney a master thinker and boxer said you have to out punch Greb with power shots, out boxing him is not an option due to his style which few could replicate.

I wish I could see a Greb film.

Surprisingly, Greb did his best to be “classy”. He wasn’t a notoriously dirty fighter. Many bouts he is being fouled constantly but still just sticks to the gameplan. It’s easy to get that impression though, because boxing in general was dirty in his day. He was allowed to get away with a lot of things.

every opponent did seem to mention his speed and stamina. He seemed to confuse even the best opponent’s.

[them_apples]

Greb would go crazy these days with 6 months between fights. I can't imagine he did much sparring between bouts. What was his longest layoff between fights?

Even when sick or tired greb would still fight. He wouldn’t stop for more than a few months. He fought with a still healing broken arm and broke it again. His forearm snapped under the elbow. Harry was a tough cat.

even in the pen and ink comics about him, the impression was he was running around fighting constantly never taking a break

he also sparred as much as possible, and had stablemates to help him with that.

he wasn’t considered a gym rat when it came to discipline, but nobody for a second would question his fitness (considered the best even by the press) due to his activity level that surpassed everyone elses.

by the time Greb was finished at 32, he had been hiding a multitude of injuries including a missing eye. He was burnt out from doing what he loved, fighting

[Dr. Z]

Surprisingly, Greb did his best to be �classy�. He wasn�t a notoriously dirty fighter. Many bouts he is being fouled constantly but still just sticks to the gameplan. It�s easy to get that impression though, because boxing in general was dirty in his day. He was allowed to get away with a lot of things.

every opponent did seem to mention his speed and stamina. He seemed to confuse even the best opponent�s.

I researched him, and after reading several of his fights and conner men comments form his opponents he was dirty. Even the referee's warned Greb to keep it clean before the fight sometimes. And Greb before curbed this tactic when they spoke to him, I have had this debate before with a few Greb fans and pointed all of the above out with links. Much like ring legends Dutch Sam and Dan Mendoza, Greb according to Tunney was ***ish. And his first name he used in the ring was ***ish. So is Greb. Like many people form Germany that were ***ish the came to America.

You can take it for me or read his BIO from the hall of fame:




Harry Greb had excellent stamina and constantly threw punches from all directions, which is how he got the nickname "The Human Windmill." Greb was also considered a dirty fighter, using elbows, thumbs and his head as often as his fists.





Greb engaged in 299 bouts Greb outfought some the best fighters of his era. A middleweight champion, Greb dueled top fighters from the heavyweight and light heavyweight divisions. Most amazing about Greb, though, is the physical disadvantage he fought through much of his career with. He was blind in one eye.





After getting thumbed in the eye by an early opponent, Greb lost sight in one of his eyes. The use of thumbs is illegal, but it was a tactic Greb himself relied upon. Over the last third of his career, the sight in his "good eye" was declining rapidly and ultimately forced him to retire at the age of 32.





Greb is the only man to have defeated Gene Tunney, decisioning him in 1922 for the vacant American Light Heavyweight title. Tunney, who beat Greb in four subsequent matches, went on to dethrone heavyweight champion Jack Dempsey in 1926.





Greb captured the middleweight crown by decisioning Johnny Wilson in 1923 and made six successful title defenses. Perhaps his most memorable middleweight conquest was a points win over legendary Mickey Walker in 1925.





Greb also fought light heavyweight champions Jack Dillon, Battling Levinsky, Mike McTigue, Tommy Loughran (six times) and Maxie Rosenbloom. In addition, he met top heavyweights Gunboat Smith, who beat heavyweight champ Jess Willard, Willie Meehan, who beat Dempsey, and Billy Miske, who fought Dempsey three times.





With his vision getting worse and close to 300 fights taking its toll, Greb lost the middleweight title to Tiger Flowers in 1926 After losing a rematch to Flowers, again by split decision, Greb announced his retirement. He was considering a comeback when he entered the hospital to have a cataract removed his eye and a fractured bone taken from his nose. After the operation, Greb died of heart failure induced by shock from the operation.



https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/b...t#post32166323



This is from the web and not my research or words.

I discovered a list of ***ish boxers on the web site
http://www.***hoo.com


***hoo.com lists Harry Greb as a ***. According to the Ring Record Book
Harry Greb was Irish-German. Anyone else have an opinion on this?

Also Ring Record Book lists Max Bear as German-Scotch. ***hoo.com has
Max and his brother Buddy listed with doubts.

Boxing ***s who are missing from the list are former bantamweight
champion Abe Goldstein, Charley Phil Rosenberg bantam champ, Benny Bass
feather champ, Louis (Kid) Kaplan, feather champ, Al Singer, lightweight
champ,
Barney (Young)Aaron, lightweight champ.

Other notable ***s outside the boxing ring are promoter Bob Arum, Cedric
Kushner, J. Russell Peltz, Don Elbaum, Mickey Duff. Boxers Kenny "****
****" Bogner, lightweight, Sam David, bantam. I'm sure I've missed many
more.

Below are the ***ish boxers listed by http://www.***hoo.com

Abe "Ape" Simon - Towering boxer who later did some into acting. Appears
in "On the Waterfront".

Abe Attell - Born in San Francisco in 1884. He learned to fight growing
up in an Irish neighborhood. He was featherweight champ for eight years
(1901-08). Overall record was 171-9.

Al "Bummy" Davis - Rough tough middleweight boxer from New York, circa
1948-9.

Barney Ross - World lightweight champ from '33-35; welterweight
'34;'35-38. Grew up in an Orthodox home in Chicago, and his father
opposed him going into the ring--wanted him to be a Hebrew teacher.
After his father's death, Ross became the family's support. He was a war
hero and becamed addicted to morphine for his wounds. Sucessful fight
back from addiction was made into the movie "Monkey On My Back".

Benny Leonard - Lightweight Champ, 1917-23. Retired champ, but came back
years later and lost some fights. A scientific boxer of great skill.
Born Benjamin Leiner. He died while refeering a match. Lifetime: 85-5-1.

Bob Olin - Light-heavyweight champion from 1934-1935. Owned a restaurant
for a short while.

Buddy Baer - Brother of Max Baer. Lost heavyweight title fight to Joe
Louis. Giant in size, he appeared in over a dozen films including "Quo
Vadis".

Cpl Izzy Schwartz - Flyweight Champion 1927-1929.

Dana Rosenblatt - Current super middle weight boxer. 35-1; w/23
knockouts.

Daniel Mendoza - Sephardic *** who became famous boxing champion of
England in the 18th Century. He did for English ***s what Jackie
Robinson did for blacks two centuries later, gave them pride in a
champion who represented his people.

Harry Greb - Middleweight Champ, 1923-26. Born in Pittsburgh. Beat Gene
Tunney once in a light heavyweight match. Known as a tough, fercious
competitor. Lifetime 105-8-3.

Jackie Berg - Known as Jackie "Kid" Berg. Born Judah Bergman in London.
Jr. Welterweight Champ, 1931. As a marketing ploy, he would wear a
tallis (prayer shawl) into the ring. Madison Square Garden favorite.
Lifetime 157-26-9.

Jill Matthews - Billed as Jill "The Zion Lion" Matthews. One of the top
female professional fighters around today. IFBA and IWBF Junior
Flyweight Champ.

Joe Choyniski - San Francisco based ***ish fighter who went the distance
with Heavyweight Champion Gentleman Jim Corbett (26 rounds) in 1889.

Keith Holmes - Current world Middleweight boxing champion.
Afro-American. Has just joined group of "Black Hebrews" who have been
settled in Dimona, Israel for close to thirty years. Not an orthodox
conversion, by any means. But this group has gained widespread
acceptance in Israel in recent years.

Max Baer - Heavyweight champion 1934-35. Fought w/a Star of David on his
shorts. Always some dispute whether he was really ***ish; or marketing
ploy. Most likely only his grandfather was ***ish. Father of Max Baer,
Jr. who played "Jethro" on "Beverly Hillbillies".

Maxie Rosenbloom - Known as "Slapsie Maxie". Light Heavyweight champion
from 1930-34. Later appeared as comic actor in Hollywood "B" movies.

Mike Rossman - Won WBA Light Heavyweight title in 1978 and wore a Star
of David on his trunks.

Ray Arcel - The trainer of great fighters. Trained 20 world champs
including,Benny Leonard, Roberto Duran and Ezzard Charles. Elected to
the New York ***ish Sports Hall of Fame in 1999. One of 2 trainers to be
elected to the Boxing Hall of Fame.

Ted Lewis - Known as Ted "Kid" Lewis. Welterweight Champ, 1915-16;
1917-1919. Born Gershon Mendelhoff in England. Tough, hard-hitting
fighter from London's East End. Held many British & European titles.
Lifetime: 170-30-14.

Zeb Judah - Black *** from Brooklyn. Many consider him one of The 5 Best
fighters in the game today. Wears the star of David on his trunks. Both
his parents are ***ish and he attended Hebrew School. Update: We have
been informed that Mr. Judah is a member of a black hebrew group, not a
mainstream ***ish sect grouping. We leave it to the viewer to decide on
his ***ishness.