Muhammad Ali. How great was he?

[Ivich]

- - Ducked the rematch of Big George for a record purse as recorded in Nov 1974 Playboy article. Then he completely nailed down his duck during George's 5 man exhibition where Ali publicly shames himself had he been a typically honorable person then. He wasn't shamed though, he was shameless just like his bigmouthed wannabe Tyson Fury is today.

Frazier was offered 4 million for a rematch with Ali after FOTC,he turned it down and defended against Foreman for $800,00.

I must remember, if I want the inside info on boxing ,read Playboy magazine! lol

[The Defecator]

Ali conveniently avoided them. The Cuban and X Soviet's have been on top since they went pro is 1995. Ali did not fight them this group or any of the black english fighters which pretty much sums up the champions since 1995 and the point of this thread.

Instead Ali, officially lost five times and should have officially lost two more times, not to mention numerous close calls in his pre-prime, prime and post prime. I chronicled some this of in this thread.

Not so bad work, right?

If you want to check out who the best heavyweight prospects are in 2024 as I define as un-defeated, non champions check out my new top 20 heavyweight prospect thread.

It not a bad review if I can say so myself.

.....

The Defecation.jpg

[mrbig1]

once again this was in my era. Big George looked bad in every fight after Ali. he kissed the canvas two time in the Lyle fight and almost loss. He looked bad in a win vs Dino Dennis. After that he gets beat by Jimmy Young then retires. No one really wanted to see a rematch with Foreman. before the Ali fight Foreman was thought to be unbeatable. After Ali Foreman looked very beatable.

[Ivich]

Ali conveniently avoided them. The Cuban and X Soviet's have been on top since they went pro is 1995. Ali did not fight them this group or any of the black english fighters which pretty much sums up the champions since 1995 and the point of this thread.

Instead Ali, officially lost five times and should have officially lost two more times, not to mention numerous close calls in his pre-prime, prime and post prime. I chronicled some this of in this thread.

Not so bad work, right?

If you want to check out who the best heavyweight prospects are in 2024 as I define as un-defeated, non champions check out my new top 20 heavyweight prospect thread.

It not a bad review if I can say so myself.

Ali fought the following British heavyweights
Bugner x2
Cooper x2
London [nobody wanted to see it again.]
Richard Dunn
Bugner,Cooper, and London were top ten ranked.No black British heavyweights were ranked during Ali' championship years .

Dr Duck . What planet are you on?
NB Jim Jeffries avoided heavyweights.from Europe,China,Mongolia,Cuba .Shame on him!

[Ivich]

I am not a promoter in the 1970's, but riddle me with this. Why did Jack Johnson not defend his title vs Sam Langford, Joe Jeannette, and Sam McVey in 1909-1915? There were offers in the press of 30-100k! But Johnson avoided these guys. Why?

At least Ali has a financial excuse as back then no X soviets or Cubans turned pro. Judging by the exhibition matches in 1978 vs. the Russians, he'd would have his hands full or lose.

1978? Ali was 36 years old.An unprepared,out of shape Ali lets a couple of amateurs look good in an exhibition WOW!
I saw Ali spar in an exhibition after he had beaten Foreman,he was fat and said he had done no training, he allowed a couple of black British heavies to look good ,then for one round he opened up on the British Champion John L Gardner and made him look silly.

Get a life FFS!

[Dr. Z]

once again this was in my era. Big George looked bad in every fight after Ali. he kissed the canvas two time in the Lyle fight and almost loss. He looked bad in a win vs Dino Dennis. After that he gets beat by Jimmy Young then retires. No one really wanted to see a rematch with Foreman. before the Ali fight Foreman was thought to be unbeatable. After Ali Foreman looked very beatable.

Wrong. Lots wanted to see Ali rematch Foreman.

[Dr. Z]

Ali fought the following British heavyweights
Bugner x2
Cooper x2
London [nobody wanted to see it again.]
Richard Dunn
Bugner,Cooper, and London were top ten ranked.No black British heavyweights were ranked during Ali' championship years .

Dr Duck . What planet are you on?
NB Jim Jeffries avoided heavyweights.from Europe,China,Mongolia,Cuba .Shame on him!

Who were these heavyweight from Europe,China,Mongolia,Cuba for Jeffries to fight? List names please as I have for Ali. Answer this Tony " Ivich " Mcvey, don't duck the Dr.

By the way Jeffries traveled to England and knocked several men out.

PS: I was unaware Burger was British! Facts do matter.

[Ivich]

Who were these heavyweight from Europe,China,Mongolia,Cuba for Jeffries to fight? List names please as I have for Ali. Answer this Tony " Ivich " Mcvey, don't duck the Dr.

By the way Jeffries traveled to England and knocked several men out.

PS: I was unaware Burger was British! Facts do matter.

Who were these heavyweights from Eastern Europe and Cuba,for Ali to fight? You don't get it do you! lol

Yes BUGNER not BURGER held BRITISH nationality

Box Rec
nationality	United Kingdom

# He won the British Title,the Commonwealth Title and the EBU Title from Henry Cooper in1971,he lost those titles the same year to Jack Bodell,and regained them from Richard Dunn in1976.
There are a lot of things you are," unaware of" including how ridiculous you are making yourself with these silly threads! LOL


Jeffries never had a formal fight in the UK and I have a list of the men he had exhibitions with,including his Brother Jack who assumed the name of Ed Dunkhorst and alternatively Jack Dunkhorst to deceive the public into believing he was not Jeffries brother.


Name one boxer Jeffries knocked out during his exhibition tour of the UK? While you are at it produce the verified offers of $30,000 to $100,000 that Jack Johnson turned down to fight either McVey,Langford,or Jeannette?

You won't answer any of this will you Dr Duck.

You're a waste of time , and a waste of space.

[Dr. Z]

Who were these heavyweights from Eastern Europe and Cuba,for Ali to fight? You don't get it do you! lol

Yes BUGNER not BURGER held BRITISH nationality

Box Rec
nationality	United Kingdom

# He won the British Title,the Commonwealth Title and the EBU Title from Henry Cooper in1971,he lost those titles the same year to Jack Bodell,and regained them from Richard Dunn in1976.
There are a lot of things you are," unaware of" including how ridiculous you are making yourself with these silly threads! LOL


Jeffries never had a formal fight in the UK and I have a list of the men he had exhibitions with,including his Brother Jack who assumed the name of Ed Dunkhorst and alternatively Jack Dunkhorst to deceive the public into believing he was not Jeffries brother.


Name one boxer Jeffries knocked out during his exhibition tour of the UK? While you are at it produce the verified offers o $30,000
to $100,000 that Jack Johnson turned down to fight either McVey,Langford,or Jeannette?

You won't answer any of this will you Dr Duck.

You're a waste of time , and a waste of space.

You have to be kidding me. T. Teofilo Stevenson for one. For two and three how about the guys he was up against in 1978! I provided the film

You do know Jeffries KO'd men in England, don't you?

I have offers for Johnson in several nations USA, UK, Australia and France. He dint not face ANY of then from 1908-1920.

You are a sad joke. Here's the first of Johnson's make ducks.



Black Champion Proves He Tampers With The Truth.

His Agreement to Box Before the National Sporting Club of London Was Signed with His Own Hand.

He Tried to Shift the Responsibility to Others.
World Produces Photograph of His Signed Letter - Opinion of Secretary of Club.

By William P. McLoughlin

Very few persons who have followed the course of Mistah Jack Johnson since he won the heavyweight championship of the world by walloping little Tommy Burns need to be told of the absolute indifference of the big negro to either truth or candor. Those, however, who like the man from Missouri, must "be shown" before they will believe and derive the most convincing proof of Johnson's dishonorable character from the letter which I print in this column and the photographic facsimile which accompanied that letter from London.

It will be remembered that the moment Johnson was proclaimed heavyweight champion he began to suffer from what a facetious friend of mine would call "elephantiasis of the cranium," but which the erudite Kid Griffo describes as the "swelled cocoa."

Dropped His Friends Overboard:

Johnson as soon as he gained the title, had no further use for the men who had stood by him when he was hustling after a snack of pork and chicken. Sam Fitzpatrick, who went broke and kept on borrowing from his friends to grub stake Johnson in the vague hope of getting it back when he would succeed in working the negro into the championship class, was cast aside. Johnson gave no earthly reason for this act of gross ingratitude. Fitzpatrick the faithful had to beat it back to San Francisco from Australia with all his pockets turned inside out, while the slugger he befriended arrived with bulging pocketbook and a bushel of resin unerative contracts.

More offers were made here. The negro promptly began to sidestep those to which he was already bound so as to hitch up with newer and more ******* ones. Right and left he disregarded his moral as well as literal obligations. So far did he go in this direction that in order to allay in some measure the popular indignation he began to worse than romance. He liked like the lamented Joe Mulhatton or Tom Ochiltree. He was worse than a gas meter. He blamed this, that or the other person for having signed contracts for him of which he knew nothing whatsoever.

When he threw over his agreement to box Sam Langford before the National Sporting Club in London, he declared that he had never agreed to any such proposition.

The Proof of It Is Here:

I am enabled today to present a damming proof of the four-flushing negro's duplicity and bad faith. The photograph (next column) shows Johnson's own letter to the club, signed by himself, in which he makes the offer to meet Langford. The camera does not lie.

Following is a letter from Mr. Bettinson, secretary of the National Sporting Club, which I received today:

National Sporting Club, Ltd.,
Covent Garden, W.C.
April 23, 1909

Dear Sir - I cabled you the other day that Johnson's statements were untrue, in consequence of several American newspaper cuttings I had received, in which he stated he repudiated Fitzpatrick's contracts, as if he had not any knowledge of what had been done.

Of course you will see by the enclosed photograph, that Johnson was absolutely personally responsible. In fact, the suggestion to box Langford for the same purse, win or lose, with Burns, came from him; and at the time, I thought it very decent of him to make the offer. The club did not ask him to do so, and I am quite certain we should always have been willing to have made a bigger offer, in the event of a victory over Burns. However, he is a ******, and a very bad type of one; and, as far as the club is concerned, we do not wish to bother about him, but when I see him making lying statements in the American Papers, I think it only right that I should repudiate them.

I think Johnson is throwing away the substance for the shadow, as he had 6,000 pounds worth of contracts booked up in London for six months of easy work. Of course, he may get more money in American, but I think this is pretty good booking for a black man.

I am pleased to say, we have got a good English champion. He is a big fellow, fourteen stone, and can really box well. He knocked out Moir in 2 min. 47 sec. on Monday evening last, and could do it at any time when called upon. Personally, I think he would have a great chance with Tommy Burns. How he will fare with Langford, I do not know, but he is very confident that no twelve-stone man can beat him. As a matter of fact he has seen Johnson, and think he could beat him. Still, we must wait to see how he goes with Langford before saying too much.

Sincerely yours,

A.F. Bettinson

No wonder Johnson is hissed and hooted at his every appearance on the stage here. Lovers of boxing the world over are naturally lovers of fair play. There is no other game which is so keenly sensitive to the touch of dishonor, and when there comes along a faker he generally reaps the reward for which he has sown the seen.

Langford is little better than Johnson. He has tricked and "pulled" and faked in the ring whenever it suited the purpose of his backers. He has hopped aside when Johnson almost caught with the goods on him.

I should like to see the two of 'em inside the ropes, and I'd like very much to see them wind up like the snake who got his tail in his mouth and swallowed himself holds bolus. I'd send a couple of wreath

[Willie Pep 229]

You have to be kidding me. T. Teofilo Stevenson for one. For two and three how about the guys he was up against in 1978! I provided the film

You do know Jeffries KO'd men in England, don't you?

I have offers for Johnson in several nations USA, UK, Australia and France. He dint not face ANY of then from 1908-1920.

You are a sad joke. Here's the first of Johnson's make ducks.



Black Champion Proves He Tampers With The Truth.

His Agreement to Box Before the National Sporting Club of London Was Signed with His Own Hand.

He Tried to Shift the Responsibility to Others.
World Produces Photograph of His Signed Letter - Opinion of Secretary of Club.

By William P. McLoughlin

Very few persons who have followed the course of Mistah Jack Johnson since he won the heavyweight championship of the world by walloping little Tommy Burns need to be told of the absolute indifference of the big negro to either truth or candor. Those, however, who like the man from Missouri, must "be shown" before they will believe and derive the most convincing proof of Johnson's dishonorable character from the letter which I print in this column and the photographic facsimile which accompanied that letter from London.

It will be remembered that the moment Johnson was proclaimed heavyweight champion he began to suffer from what a facetious friend of mine would call "elephantiasis of the cranium," but which the erudite Kid Griffo describes as the "swelled cocoa."

Dropped His Friends Overboard:

Johnson as soon as he gained the title, had no further use for the men who had stood by him when he was hustling after a snack of pork and chicken. Sam Fitzpatrick, who went broke and kept on borrowing from his friends to grub stake Johnson in the vague hope of getting it back when he would succeed in working the negro into the championship class, was cast aside. Johnson gave no earthly reason for this act of gross ingratitude. Fitzpatrick the faithful had to beat it back to San Francisco from Australia with all his pockets turned inside out, while the slugger he befriended arrived with bulging pocketbook and a bushel of resin unerative contracts.

More offers were made here. The negro promptly began to sidestep those to which he was already bound so as to hitch up with newer and more ******* ones. Right and left he disregarded his moral as well as literal obligations. So far did he go in this direction that in order to allay in some measure the popular indignation he began to worse than romance. He liked like the lamented Joe Mulhatton or Tom Ochiltree. He was worse than a gas meter. He blamed this, that or the other person for having signed contracts for him of which he knew nothing whatsoever.

When he threw over his agreement to box Sam Langford before the National Sporting Club in London, he declared that he had never agreed to any such proposition.

The Proof of It Is Here:

I am enabled today to present a damming proof of the four-flushing negro's duplicity and bad faith. The photograph (next column) shows Johnson's own letter to the club, signed by himself, in which he makes the offer to meet Langford. The camera does not lie.

Following is a letter from Mr. Bettinson, secretary of the National Sporting Club, which I received today:

National Sporting Club, Ltd.,
Covent Garden, W.C.
April 23, 1909

Dear Sir - I cabled you the other day that Johnson's statements were untrue, in consequence of several American newspaper cuttings I had received, in which he stated he repudiated Fitzpatrick's contracts, as if he had not any knowledge of what had been done.

Of course you will see by the enclosed photograph, that Johnson was absolutely personally responsible. In fact, the suggestion to box Langford for the same purse, win or lose, with Burns, came from him; and at the time, I thought it very decent of him to make the offer. The club did not ask him to do so, and I am quite certain we should always have been willing to have made a bigger offer, in the event of a victory over Burns. However, he is a ******, and a very bad type of one; and, as far as the club is concerned, we do not wish to bother about him, but when I see him making lying statements in the American Papers, I think it only right that I should repudiate them.

I think Johnson is throwing away the substance for the shadow, as he had 6,000 pounds worth of contracts booked up in London for six months of easy work. Of course, he may get more money in American, but I think this is pretty good booking for a black man.

I am pleased to say, we have got a good English champion. He is a big fellow, fourteen stone, and can really box well. He knocked out Moir in 2 min. 47 sec. on Monday evening last, and could do it at any time when called upon. Personally, I think he would have a great chance with Tommy Burns. How he will fare with Langford, I do not know, but he is very confident that no twelve-stone man can beat him. As a matter of fact he has seen Johnson, and think he could beat him. Still, we must wait to see how he goes with Langford before saying too much.

Sincerely yours,

A.F. Bettinson

No wonder Johnson is hissed and hooted at his every appearance on the stage here. Lovers of boxing the world over are naturally lovers of fair play. There is no other game which is so keenly sensitive to the touch of dishonor, and when there comes along a faker he generally reaps the reward for which he has sown the seen.

Langford is little better than Johnson. He has tricked and "pulled" and faked in the ring whenever it suited the purpose of his backers. He has hopped aside when Johnson almost caught with the goods on him.

I should like to see the two of 'em inside the ropes, and I'd like very much to see them wind up like the snake who got his tail in his mouth and swallowed himself holds bolus. I'd send a couple of wreath

Powerful stuff.

A little concerned with William P. McLoughlin and his possible racial position. The use of the word "Mistah" leaves me with a chill.

I would love for you to write out the * in the National Sporting Club's letter. I am curious as to their word choice, in what is obviously the most aggressive statement the Club makes.

(Write out the word and then make one letter italic and it will post cleanly. ---> E.g. Fuck ---> The "u" is in italics so the word posted.)

A.F. Bettinson jumping on Langford I never saw before, nteresting stuff. Can you give some source details on Bettinson? Who he wrote for? Date of statement?

Good post. Thanks.