Muhammad Ali. How great was he?

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n32119264]

Powerful stuff.

A little concerned with William P. McLoughlin and his possible racial position. The use of the word "Mistah" leaves me with a chill.

I would love for you to write out the * in the National Sporting Club's letter. I am curious as to their word choice, in what is obviously the most aggressive statement the Club makes.

(Write out the word and then make one letter italic and it will post cleanly. ---> E.g. Fuck ---> The "u" is in italics so the word posted.)

A.F. Bettinson jumping on Langford I never saw before, nteresting stuff. Can you give some source details on Bettinson? Who he wrote for? Date of statement?

Good post. Thanks Quote.
When the Johnson v Langford fight was negotiatedJohnson was not even allowed in the room .He stood outside while Fitzpatrick and Bettinson came to an agreement ,then he was presented with the contract to sign which he did.

The point being Betttinson had the racial attitudes of his day .Langford was popular, he being considered a ****** who knew his place.

Bettinson co founded the NSC as a private members club,and it soon assumed semi official status,standardizing weight divisions and awarding championship belts.If a fight occurred outside their club as several of Iron Hague's did they would not recognize it nor would they recognize a new British champion who had won his title outside their au****es.
Bettinson , an all round sportsman was the Managing Director.

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A.F. Bettinson (ibhof.com)

[Willie Pep 229]

Several months after the above offer a "mysterious group of London Sportsmen" (LOL) made Jack Kent Cooke an eight million offer to buy out his contract.

Three million for each fighter, Ali and Frazier and three million for Cooke to give up his hold over the fight.

This comes in at two million short of the fighters' demand for five million each back in May.

New York Times July 22nd, 1972.

[QueensburyRules]

Frazier was offered $ 4million for the rematch and turned it down.This is in the public domain.

- - U sagging shorts load ain’t public domain unless U go out in public…oh, wait, U just did!!!

[Willie Pep 229]

From what I have found I think it is fair to ask: Why no rematch in '72?"

The monies were offered, but always a touch short as to what the fighters were asking.

I would now like to know why no rematch. Who pulled out first, Frazier or Ali?

I am not big on the idea of the word DUCK - I think it gets misused on this forum.

I also suspect the decision made, not to rematch, will likely have economic reasons attached to it, but not fear. Certainly these two were not ducking each pther out of fear.

That's just a silly thing to think, but no doubt if these forum guys can call Dempsey, Johnson, or Marciano cowards, I am sure they can convince themselves that Frazier was a coward ducker too. Much sad commentary!

But I do ask why, no rematch fight? Money looks to have been there. What went wrong?

[Dr. Z]

when you show me the confirmed offers of between $30,000 and $100,000 it will be a first!

I have been asking for them for over a dozen years!

Produce them! Just think how you will be perceived,as being the first to do so!

You have a golden opportunity to.;

prove your mettle once and for all!

You won't and we both know it!

And,more importantly now, so does everyone on here!!!!!!

you are an imbecile!!!


Do you really think i can't produce those links which johnson in all cases did not agree to sign? why not sign them and see if the fight happens rather than say there was no money in it?

i can produce offers form the press and known promoters of 30-100k to fight langford, jeannette, and mcvey.

If johnson did sign them, you would have an argument that he did not duck so many men! Produce that, and prove it to the readers.

It's open challenge to you! You know it, and i know it.

Now, i expect you to shrink away and not accept this challenge. your mo is to go off on a tanget and show us something that has nothing at all to do with what i'm am talking about.

[Ivich]

you are an imbecile!!!


Do you really think i can't produce those links which johnson in all cases did not agree to sign? why not sign them and see if the fight happens rather than say there was no money in it?

i can produce offers form the press and known promoters of 30-100k to fight langford, jeannette, and mcvey.

If johnson did sign them, you would have an argument that he did not duck so many men! Produce that, and prove it to the readers.

It's open challenge to you! You know it, and i know it.

Now, i expect you to shrink away and not accept this challenge. your mo is to go off on a tanget and show us something that has nothing at all to do with what i'm am talking about.

Johnson signed to defend against McVey and Langford in Australia for H D McIntosh and he twice signed to defend against Jeannette in NY for the McMahon Bros.

Johnson signs to defend against Sam McVey.

"Sunny Jim" Coffroth , the leading promoter of his time gave this interview to the French Sporting Magazine" La Boxe" in 1911.Explaining why he never tried to make a Johnson defence against a black challenger.
"It would be impossible in the USA to match Johnson against one of his black Challengers,likeSam Langford or Joe Jeannette.It would be a great fight,the two negroes would not miss the opportunity to inflict the necessary and sufficient hiding that we would be entitled to expect from them.But the problem is that in America,they would not stand a chance of success.Why? For the only reason that the Blacks are hated in America.A fight that would put two of them face to face would not attract big crowds".


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image.pngMy thanks to Travestny who previously posted this here.
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[Ivich]

you are an imbecile!!!


Do you really think i can't produce those links which johnson in all cases did not agree to sign? why not sign them and see if the fight happens rather than say there was no money in it?

i can produce offers form the press and known promoters of 30-100k to fight langford, jeannette, and mcvey.

If johnson did sign them, you would have an argument that he did not duck so many men! Produce that, and prove it to the readers.

It's open challenge to you! You know it, and i know it.

Now, i expect you to shrink away and not accept this challenge. your mo is to go off on a tanget and show us something that has nothing at all to do with what i'm am talking about.

Challenge accepted and proof posted in my last post!!

Now, can we have your proof that Johnson refused offers of between $30,000 and $100,000 to defend against McVey,Langford and Jeannette ?

I've only been asking you for this for 13 years!
If you have these confirmed offers;

PRODUCE THEM!

IT'S WELL PAST TIME TO ANTE UP DR DUCK!

[Dr. Z]

You didn't produce that. Where are all the others? When did he sign the fight and when did the promoter announce the purse? Dates matter. What are they????

If Johnson only signed the articles after the fight was off it means nothing.

By showing one example of an offer I am right. Like is said there were plenty of offers. Yet no fights. Why???

[Ivich]

You didn't produce that. Where are all the others? When did he sign the fight and when did the promoter announce the purse? Dates matter. What are they????

If Johnson only signed the articles after the fight was off it means nothing.

By showing one example of an offer I am right. Like is said there were plenty of offers. Yet no fights. Why???

You showed no example of an offer of between $30,000 and$100,000 for Johnson to defend his title against any of the black trio.

What you showed was an offer made to Johnson to fight Langford for a $6000 purse to be divided as follows $4000 to the winner,$2000 to the loser,the fighters to meet their own expenses.[the fight was to be held in London,]When he was a mere challenger Johnson accepted the offer, which was made in the Autumn of 1908.
Johnson won the title on Boxing Day December the 26th of that year,he then told the NSC that as Champion his price was now $30,000, the same amount as Burns had demanded and received for defending against him.

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Yes dates matter and here I produce them!
Johnson signed to defend against Joe Jeanette for the McMahon Brothers in NY on August 14th 1912 the fight to take place on September the 25th of that year.Johnson was to receive a guaranteed $25,000 plus a 25% percentage of all the gate over $60,000 plus 50% of the film rights.Source Jack Johnson ,The Reign Vol 2 Adam Pollack.The fight was banned by the NYAC.

Johnson signed to defend against McVey and Langford for H D McIntosh in Australia on October 12th 1912 . The fights to take place December 1912 and February1913
Johnson was to receive $55.000 plus $5000 training expenses plus 5 round trip tickets $10,000 forfeits to be posted by all parties.
Source Jack Johnson ,The Reign Vol 2 Adam Pollack. Same chapter ,these details were also posted in several newspapers including the Freeman on Oct 19th1912
When Johnson jumped bail McIntosh cancelled the fights.
Below is an extract from Clay Moyle's excellent biography of Sam Langford.
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" There is no man in the world who has a chance with him" Stanley Ketchel after the Johnson v Jeffries fight.page 516 Jack Johnson the Reign. Adam Pollack.

" Langford could not make a showing against Johnson.He's too small.

Then two black men fighting would not draw a crowd.

.Johnson told me he would be willing to meet Langford,but he knew a fight

between Blacks would not make any money." Tex Rickard,San Francisco Bulletin July 7th 1910 Adam Pollack .Jack Johnson vol2 .PAGE 518

Now,will you stop squirming ,and moving the gaol posts and post;
YOUR CONFIRMED OFFERS of between $30,000 and $100,000 that Johnson refused ?
Don't forget the names of the promoters, the venues ,and the dates!

YOU are the one making these claims .

I AM the one challenging YOU to produce them!

[Ivich]

You didn't produce that. Where are all the others? When did he sign the fight and when did the promoter announce the purse? Dates matter. What are they????

If Johnson only signed the articles after the fight was off it means nothing.

By showing one example of an offer I am right. Like is said there were plenty of offers. Yet no fights. Why???

• • • Originally posted here byTravestyny and ignored by you 3 years ago!
      
    • #4
      07-22-2020, 10:36 PM
      Originally posted by travestyny View Post