Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

[Dr. Z]

No,no and no ! They talked about it in1959 when Moore was the Lightheavyweight champion didnt you read your own link?

" Just look at Sugar Ray Robinson vs. Archie Moore.

No, these two all-time greats never squared off in the ring, but in 1959 they came very close to doing so. Both Sugar Ray and the “Old Mongoose” met to discuss what could have been a career-defining fight


Robinson never fought any middleweights when he was between 134 and 141lbs which he was in1941.Moore was the number 4 ranked middleweight that year why would the 21 years old Robinson fight him?
The highest Robinson weighed in1942 was145lbs and for most of his fights that year he was around143 144lbs.
Robinson did not fight a middleweight until Feb 1943 ,when he gave Lamotta 16 pounds and beat him.

In 1943 Moore was the number 1 contender for Zale's middleweight title and was coming into the ring scaling from157 to 165lbs

Who would pay to see a young Robinson give up to 20lbs to the number 1 middleweight contender? Zale comes into it because he never fought any of the Murderers Row I listed although he was either a ranked middleweight or the champion when they were ranked!
I REPEAT ROBINSON DID NOT FIGHT A MIDDLEWEIGHT UNTIL 1943!
Do you see anyone agreeing with you on all these silly threads you are making?
You just keep mugging yourself,it saves me doing it to you! lol

So let say okay 1943 and beyond. Still no fights with Moore or the Black Murders row. Boxing best pound for pound fighter, so they say looks awful scared of the best black talent based in the USA doesn't he? At least on paper he does.

As a welter or middle. He did not fight any of them! But he did lose to black Englishmen Randy Turpin. Hmm...

[Willie Pep 229]

So let say okay 1943 and beyond. Still no fights with Moore or the Black Murders row. Boxing best pound for pound fighter, so they say looks awful scared of the best black talent based in the USA doesn't he? At least on paper he does.

As a welter or middle. He did not fight any of them! But he did lose to black Englishmen Randy Turpin. Hmm...

Why do you conclude fear?

You can't just take a cursory look at the results of an era, pointbout missing fights and then conclude he was scared. A man who fought two hundred times doesn't scare.

It is the wrong word. If you feel he didn't give black fighters a chance when he should of, OK I'll consuder tour point, but to suggest such a man is scared discredits your argument.

[Slugfester]

I think you guys over rate Burley.

I think it popular today to 'look in the know' by calling him masterful but I don't see it in his resume.

He has a trilogy with Zivic (2-1) and several bouts with Holman Williams, by whom, when it counted the most (Buffalo, summer 1945), got schooled and driven into obscurity.

Had a victory over a very young Old Mongoose, but couldn't get by Charles, Bivins, or even Georgie Abrams.

His biggest payday was a victory over Oakland Billy Smith and it was Smith who packed the stadium.

They (Zivic's promoter) even tried building a gate by having a 'homecoming fight' with Zivic in Pittsburgh.

The promotion was so dead on arrival that Zivic's manager had to buy up Burley's contract to keep him viable for the fight, and when the fight tanked at the gate, he sold him off.

Burley screwed himself over by never coming east to New York and throwing himself into the mix with the big boys. He never stepped up.

You can claim he was ducked but how does a fighter duck someone who is not around to fight?

He fought twice in New York, once at St. Nick's Arena (1942) and a second time in Buffalo, N.Y. and that's all folks. 90 plus fights and one New York City appearance.

No one had to duck him, he was never around the top guys to fight. He built his career in Pittsburgh, but when it came time to step up he chose Minnesota (why, I have no clue) and then later California. He chose the westcoast and it cost him.

Holman Williams who was also a westcoast fighter came to New York on several occasions and took on some big names. So it could be done, the fights were there, Burley wasn't.

If people were willing to fight Holman Williams, there was no reason to duck Burley, Williams was a touch better (albeit, also bigger).

I don't think the guy was ducked, just ignored.

Lots of praise, even by his contemporaries, for not really doing very much.

TITLE SHOTS: He was never ducked for a title shot. That is obvious by studying the rankings.

Even though Fleischer always ranked him high, he was never the next guy in line for a title shot.

In The Ring's Rankings, he was always a bride's maid, stuck behind SRR or Holman Williams and several others.

No doubt he got cheated out of his best years, with the titles on hold during WWII, but even then he was active and still avoided New York.

Williams had the punch of a mouse and was even more boring than Burley. Charley, if he did give up, had already seen the futility of getting a title matchup. All but one of Williams' big victories were by decision. He must have been even more boring than Hopkins, if possible. On the other hand Burley had a great KO ratio against the same crowd.

But now you and your abacus have somehow managed to reason that it was Burley who ducked Robinson. In other words, he didn't want a title shot. If he avoided New York it was because he had already seen the futility and because he had some cockeyed plan to fix it. Obviously, he was not a great general outside the squared circle, but only inside it.

You make an interesting point, but probably misinterpret your own findings.

[Willie Pep 229]

Williams had the punch of a mouse and was even more boring than Burley. Charley, if he did give up, had already seen the futility of getting a title matchup. All but one of Williams' big victories were by decision. He must have been even more boring than Hopkins, if possible. On the other hand Burley had a great KO ratio against the same crowd.

But now you and your abacus have somehow managed to reason that it was Burley who ducked Robinson. In other words, he didn't want a title shot. If he avoided New York it was because he had already seen the futility and because he had some cockeyed plan to fix it. Obviously, he was not a great general outside the squared circle, but only inside it.

You make an interesting point, but probably misinterpret your own findings.

I did NOT conclude or even suggest that Burley ducked anyone.

"DUCK" -- The most over used word on this platform.

I said he didn't fight in New York. I didn't say he didn't because he was ducking the big fights.

Look, Burely's career was a disaster. His contract was sold three times, and he had four managers/promoters, none of which could figure out how to sell him, so they dumped him cheap.

His gate numbers weren't bad, they were dismal.

Over on the Boxrec History forum one poster gathered a dozen or more articles on Burley's fights. The gate number were staggering low. Low!

There were times, when we saw the gate and factored that against the number of fighters that needed to be paid, (not to mention expenses,) and the best we could conclude was that he often made less than $300 for the night's work.

Again, I have no clue why you put the word "duck" in my mouth.

Burley made a decision to fight in Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Minnesota, and California. I called that a very bad decision and believe it left him out of the mix.

Why he chose that path I did not even speculate on, never mind used an "abacus" to factor.

Any 'duck' was either in your mind or just your desire to be condescending.

But it is quite annoying that you suggested that I suggested that Burley ducked SRR.

A perversion of my comments. You shouldn't do that.

[Ivich]

So let say okay 1943 and beyond. Still no fights with Moore or the Black Murders row. Boxing best pound for pound fighter, so they say looks awful scared of the best black talent based in the USA doesn't he? At least on paper he does.

As a welter or middle. He did not fight any of them! But he did lose to black Englishmen Randy Turpin. Hmm...

What you don't seem to be able to grasp is Robinson was a welterweight in the 40s with his sights set on winning the welter weight title! You set the date at 1941 now that you have realized that doesn' t work for you, you've brought it forward to1943.Its past midnight here ,Im going to bed.

[Ivich]

So let say okay 1943 and beyond. Still no fights with Moore or the Black Murders row. Boxing best pound for pound fighter, so they say looks awful scared of the best black talent based in the USA doesn't he? At least on paper he does.

As a welter or middle. He did not fight any of them! But he did lose to black Englishmen Randy Turpin. Hmm...

Right ,lets look at Robinson from 43 onwards.
1943 Robinson fought the number 1 middleweight contender Lamotta twice conceding him16 lbs he won 1 and lost 1.
Ranked below Lamotta at middle were;
Holman Williams at no2
Basora at no 4
Moore at no 10
So, according to you Robinson was scared to fight them,but he had no problem fighting the number 1 contender TWICE?
That year Robinson, now ranked no1 at Welter fought and beat the number 2 Welter Henry Armstrong, and the number 3 California Jackie Wilson. plus no5 Welter Zannelli.
Ranked below Armstrong and Wilson were.
Cocoa Kid no4 and Jimmy Edgar no7.
Again Ray is scared to fight Cocoa Kid and Edgar but instead takes on the no 2 and 3 Welters who were ranked above them and just behind himself.
BTW what colour were Armstrong and Wilson? More to come!

[Ivich]

So let say okay 1943 and beyond. Still no fights with Moore or the Black Murders row. Boxing best pound for pound fighter, so they say looks awful scared of the best black talent based in the USA doesn't he? At least on paper he does.

As a welter or middle. He did not fight any of them! But he did lose to black Englishmen Randy Turpin. Hmm...

1944 Robinson fights no5 Welter Janazzo and no 10 middleweight Dellicurti whom he concedes 9lbs to.

[Dr. Z]

1944 Robinson fights no5 Welter Janazzo and no 10 middleweight Dellicurti whom he concedes 9lbs to.

Who are they? Likely fighters you have never seen or talked about that's who.


You are a joke, but thank for proving my point the Sugar Ray Robinson would fight a middle when he wasn't 160 pounds....if he wasn't that good. Dellicurti was 39- 33-9 with only 5 Ko's! He was also only 5'7" tall. Nobody takes you seriously.

Once again no fights with Moore or the Black Murders row.

[Ivich]

Who are they? Likely fighters you have never seen or talked about that's who.


You are a joke, but thank for proving my point the Sugar Ray Robinson would fight a middle when he wasn't 160 pounds....if he wasn't that good. Dellicurti was 39- 33-9 with only 5 Ko's! He was also only 5'7" tall. Nobody takes you seriously.

Once again no fights with Moore or the Black Murders row.

God you really are ignorant,even on your own threads!
Jannazzo beat Holman Williams and twice beat Cocoa Kid!

Dellicurti beat Coley Welch and Georgie Abrams.

Heard of them have you?
Lammotta was good wasnt he?
How many times did Robinson fight him?
You belong in the Theatre Of the Absurd!

[Dr. Z]

Again Ray is scared to fight Cocoa Kid and Edgar but instead takes on the no 2 and 3 Welters who ware ranked above them and just behind himself.
BTW what colour were Armstrong and Wilson? More to come!

Wilson lost an MSG decision . A Majority decison is what SRR settled for. MSG place that was mob run you know. Anyway the fight was close!

Armstrong was a great fighter but very shop worn with 150+ fights. He weighed but 140 pounds He stood 5'5 1/2" tall. It was a name win only.

When matched vs. prime black men with skill, SRR lost or had very close fights. And the guys he was matched with were not close to murders row talent or Middle weight Archie Moore. You really do not do any research, do you?

I would plant a rake for you to step on, but you do it all by yourself.