Did Sugar Ray Robinson avoid the black murder's row?

[Dr. Z]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n32059682]

Be black and win a title and you become a 'ducker.' No matter the circumstances. E.g. Johnson, Louis, SRR.[/QUOTE



When the title shots are given by Johnson, Louis, and SRR vs. black men, some at the journeyman level others some at the top ten level they often left out the real talent of the best back fighters of the times. This is a factual, and shameful period of boxing. As much as a certain someone tries to blame it on the two blacks would not draw nonsense ...look up the purses when they fought Hence you wonder what if Johnson, Louis and SRR fought the avoided black hall of fame members or other contenders of their times as in title fights.

Furthermore the result when they did fight journeymen, or mere top ten level contenders were often Losses, Dubious draws and Winning via questionable judging. Any historian worth his salt would have to agree if they research. Do you?

[Ivich]

This always comes back to the same question which you continually refuse to answer.
WHEN SHOULD ROBINSON HAVE FOUGHT;THE MEN YOU SAY HE DUCKED ?
BURLEY
MOORE
BOOKER
BOLDEN
WILLIAMS
COCOA KID
LYTELL
MARSHALL
RAY FOUGHT BASORA AND HE FOUGHT WADE
SO TELL US WHEN HE SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT THE 8 I'VE NAMED?
WHICH YEARS?
JUST STOP ALL THE BS AND ANSWER THE QUESTION!

TELL US WHAT THE BIGGEST PURSES FOR WERE FOR;
BOLDEN
BOOKER
COCOA KID
WILLIAMS
LYTELL
MARSHALL

COCA KID AND WADE ENDED UP AS SPARRING PARTNERS FOR ROBINSON.WHICH TELLS YOU HOW MUCH MONEY THEY COULD DRAW .

WTF DO YOU THINK THE ROW FOUGHT EACH OTHER 62 TIMES?

[Dr. Z]

This always comes back to the same question which you continually refuse to answer.
WHEN SHOULD ROBINSON HAVE FOUGHT;THE MEN YOU SAY HE DUCKED ?
BURLEY
MOORE
BOOKER
BOLDEN
WILLIAMS
COCOA KID
LYTELL
MARSHALL
RAY FOUGHT BASORA AND HE FOUGHT WADE
SO TELL US WHEN HE SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT THE 8 I'VE NAMED?
WHICH YEARS?
JUST STOP ALL THE BS AND ANSWER THE QUESTION!

TELL US WHAT THE BIGGEST PURSES FOR WERE FOR;
BOLDEN
BOOKER
COCOA KID
WILLIAMS
LYTELL
MARSHALL

COCA KID AND WADE ENDED UP AS SPARRING PARTNERS FOR ROBINSON.WHICH TELLS YOU HOW MUCH MONEY THEY COULD DRAW .

WTF DO YOU THINK THE ROW FOUGJHT EACH OTHER 62 TIMES?

From 1941-1953. But Robinson avoided many of the top black talent of the times, men in the Hall of fame. ALL EIGHT of the names you listed.

You're inadvertently funny.

Tell me again who much he made vs Black Randy Turpin?

Tell me again how he would not fight at middle weight as a welter weight?

So much for your junk statements.

Bawahaha. You are a joke. I not longer wish to spend time on you.

[Ivich]

From 1941-1953. But Robinson avoided many of the top black talent of the times, men in the Hall of fame. ALL EIGHT of the names you listed.

You're inadvertently funny.

Tell me again who much he made vs Black Randy Turpin?

Tell me again how he would not fight at middle weight as a welter weight?

So much for your junk statements.

Bawahaha. You are a joke. I not longer wish to spend time on you.

NOBODY AGREES WITH YOU ON YOUR OWN THREAD!
MAKE ALL THE CHILDISH EMOTICONS YOU WANT.
"1941 to1953".
IN 1941 THE HEAVIEST ROBINSON WEIGHED WAS 141LBS .

ALL THE ROW WERE UNRANKED AT END OF 1949 AND SEVEN OF THEM WERE RETIRED!
Booker retired in 44
Bolden in 44
Kid in 48
Williams in 48
Wade in 50
Burley in 50
Chase in 48
Basora in 52
Lytell in 51
ROBINSON WAS RETIRED FROM JAN 52 UNTIL FEB 55!

ROBINSON FOUGHT BRIT TURPIN IN LONDON AND TURPIN DETHRONED HIM IN A HUGE
UP SET NATURALLY THE PUBLIC WANTED TO SEE THE REMATCH!

TURPIN BTW WAS THE NUMBER 1 CONTENDER FOR RAY'S TITLE WHEN THEY FIRST MET.

SO HE WAS THE TOP BLACK TALENT AT160LBs. WASNT HE!

ROBINSON FOUGHT NUMBER 1 GAVILAN TWICE. WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

ROBINSON FOUGHT NUMBER WILSON TWICE. WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

ROBINSON FOUGHT NUMBER 1 BELL TWICE. WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

ROBINSON FOUGHT BASORA TWICE HE WAS NUMBER 4 IN THEIR FIRST FIGHT WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

NONE OF THE ROW WERE RANKED WHEN ROBINSON WAS CHAMP AT MIDDLEWEIGHT.

NONE OF THE ROW WERE RANKED WHEN ROBINSON WAS A CONTENDER AT MIDDLEWEIGHT.

AFTER 1942 NONE OF THE ROW WERE RANKED AT WELTERWEIGHT

AND NONE OF THEM WERE RANKED WHEN ROBINSON WAS WELTER CHAMP!

I ASKED YOU FOR THE INDIVIDUAL YEARS ROBINSON SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT THESE MEN?

I TOLD YOU ROBINSON WAS ALWAYS PREPARED TO FIGHT HEAVIER MEN WHEN THE FINANCIAL REWARDS WERE ACCEPTABLE.

GOD ALMIGHTY HE PROVED THIS ENOUGH DIDN'T HE ,FIGHTING LAMOTTA 6 TIMES! MAXIM?

HIS RESUME IS CRAMMED WITH HEAVIER MEN HE BEAT, AND PLENTY OF THEM WERE TOP TEN RANKED CLASS MEN!

ROBINSON FOUGHT FROM LIGHTWEIGHT TO LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT!

WHY DO YOU THINK HE WAS CALLED THE P4P GREATEST?

YOU SAY ROBINSON DUCKED THESE MEN OUT OF FEAR

AT THE AGE OF 39 ROBINSON WAS FIGHTING NO 2 RANKED FULLMER.

AT THE AGE OF 39 HE WAS FIGHTING CHAMP PENDER.

AT 41 HE FOUGHT NO 3 DOWNES.

AT 42 HE TANGLED WITH NO 2 GIARDELLO.

AND AT 44 HE FOUGHT NO1 ARCHER.

DO THESE SEEM LIKE THE ACTIONS OF A COWARD TO YOU?

YOU HAVE NO ANSWERS, SO NOW YOU ARE DOING WHAT YOU ALWAYS DO, RUN AWAY!

YOU MAKE A THREAD ABOUT A SUBJECT OF WHICH YOU KNOW NOTHING

THEN BAIL OUT WHEN YOU'RE IGNORANCE IS EXPOSED.


YOU'RE NOT ONLY ILLITERATE AND ****** YOU'RE ALSO A COWARD .

IF YOU WERE NOT SUCH A SAD ,AGENDA DRIVEN ,HATER YOU WOULD BE HILARIOUS.

WHAT A PATHETIC ABSURDITY YOU ARE!

BTW. A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO I LISTENED TO A RECORDING OF JACK JOHNSON GIVING A ROUND BY ROUND SUMMMARY OF HIS JEFFRIES FIGHT.
VERY ENJOYABLE IT WAS TOO!
ALMOST AS ENJOYABLE AS IT HAS BEEN RIPPING YOU TO SHREDS ON THIS YOUR OWN THREAD!

KEEP THE LAUGHS COMING!

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32060382]
NOBODY AGREES WITH YOU ON YOUR OWN THREAD!
MAKE ALL THE CHILDISH EMOTICONS YOU WANT.
"1941 to1953".
IN 1941 THE HEAVIEST ROBINSON WEIGHED WAS 141LBS .

ALL THE ROW WERE UNRANKED AT END OF 1949 AND SEVEN OF THEM WERE RETIRED!
Booker retired in 44
Bolden in 44
Kid in 48
Williams in 48
Wade in 50
Burley in 50
Chase in 48
Basora in 52
Lytell in 51
ROBINSON WAS RETIRED FROM JAN 52 UNTIL FEB 55!

ROBINSON FOUGHT BRIT TURPIN IN LONDON AND TURPIN DETHRONED HIM IN A HUGE
UP SET NATURALLY THE PUBLIC WANTED TO SEE THE REMATCH!

TURPIN BTW WAS THE NUMBER 1 CONTENDER FOR RAY'S TITLE WHEN THEY FIRST MET.

SO HE WAS THE TOP BLACK TALENT AT160LBs. WASNT HE!

ROBINSON FOUGHT NUMBER 1 GAVILAN TWICE. WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

ROBINSON FOUGHT NUMBER 3 WILSON TWICE. WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

ROBINSON FOUGHT NUMBER 1 BELL TWICE. WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

ROBINSON FOUGHT BASORA TWICE HE WAS NUMBER 4 IN THEIR FIRST FIGHT WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

NONE OF THE ROW WERE RANKED WHEN ROBINSON WAS CHAMP AT MIDDLEWEIGHT.

NONE OF THE ROW WERE RANKED WHEN ROBINSON WAS A CONTENDER AT MIDDLEWEIGHT.

AFTER 1942 NONE OF THE ROW WERE RANKED AT WELTERWEIGHT

AND NONE OF THEM WERE RANKED WHEN ROBINSON WAS WELTER CHAMP!

I ASKED YOU FOR THE INDIVIDUAL YEARS ROBINSON SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT THESE MEN?

I TOLD YOU ROBINSON WAS ALWAYS PREPARED TO FIGHT HEAVIER MEN WHEN THE FINANCIAL REWARDS WERE ACCEPTABLE.

GOD ALMIGHTY HE PROVED THIS ENOUGH DIDN'T HE ,FIGHTING LAMOTTA 6 TIMES! MAXIM?

HIS RESUME IS CRAMMED WITH HEAVIER MEN HE BEAT, AND PLENTY OF THEM WERE TOP TEN RANKED CLASS MEN!

ROBINSON FOUGHT FROM LIGHTWEIGHT TO LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT!

WHY DO YOU THINK HE WAS CALLED THE P4P GREATEST?

YOU SAY ROBINSON DUCKED THESE MEN OUT OF FEAR

AT THE AGE OF 39 ROBINSON WAS FIGHTING NO 2 RANKED FULLMER.

AT THE AGE OF 39 HE WAS FIGHTING CHAMP PENDER.

AT 41 HE FOUGHT NO 3 DOWNES.

AT 42 HE TANGLED WITH NO 2 GIARDELLO.

AND AT 44 HE FOUGHT NO1 ARCHER.

DO THESE SEEM LIKE THE ACTIONS OF A COWARD TO YOU?

YOU HAVE NO ANSWERS, SO NOW YOU ARE DOING WHAT YOU ALWAYS DO, RUN AWAY!

YOU MAKE A THREAD ABOUT A SUBJECT OF WHICH YOU KNOW NOTHING

THEN BAIL OUT OF YOUR OWN THREAD WHEN YOU'RE IGNORANCE IS EXPOSED.


YOU'RE NOT ONLY ILLITERATE AND ****** YOU'RE ALSO A COWARD .

IF YOU WERE NOT SUCH A SAD ,AGENDA DRIVEN ,HATER YOU WOULD BE HILARIOUS.

WHAT A PATHETIC ABSURDITY YOU ARE!

QUOTE]

BTW. A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO I LISTENED TO A RECORDING OF JACK JOHNSON GIVING A ROUND BY ROUND SUMMMARY OF HIS JEFFRIES FIGHT.
VERY ENJOYABLE IT WAS TOO!
ALMOST AS ENJOYABLE AS IT HAS BEEN RIPPING YOU TO SHREDS ON THIS YOUR OWN THREAD!

KEEP THE JOKE THREADS COMING! WE ALL NEED A LAUGH IN THESE TROUBLED TIMES1

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n32061385]

NOBODY AGREES WITH YOU ON YOUR OWN THREAD!
MAKE ALL THE CHILDISH EMOTICONS YOU WANT.
"1941 to1953".
IN 1941 THE HEAVIEST ROBINSON WEIGHED WAS 141LBS .

ALL THE ROW WERE UNRANKED AT END OF 1949 AND SEVEN OF THEM WERE RETIRED!
Booker retired in 44
Bolden in 44
Kid in 48
Williams in 48
Wade in 50
Burley in 50
Chase in 48
Basora in 52
Lytell in 51
ROBINSON WAS RETIRED FROM JAN 52 UNTIL FEB 55!

ROBINSON FOUGHT BRIT TURPIN IN LONDON AND TURPIN DETHRONED HIM IN A HUGE
UP SET NATURALLY THE PUBLIC WANTED TO SEE THE REMATCH!

TURPIN BTW WAS THE NUMBER 1 CONTENDER FOR RAY'S TITLE WHEN THEY FIRST MET.

SO HE WAS THE TOP BLACK TALENT AT160LBs. WASNT HE!

ROBINSON FOUGHT NUMBER 1 GAVILAN TWICE. WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

ROBINSON FOUGHT NUMBER 3 WILSON TWICE. WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

ROBINSON FOUGHT NUMBER 1 BELL TWICE. WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

ROBINSON FOUGHT BASORA TWICE HE WAS NUMBER 4 IN THEIR FIRST FIGHT WASN'T HE TOP BLACK TALENT?

NONE OF THE ROW WERE RANKED WHEN ROBINSON WAS CHAMP AT MIDDLEWEIGHT.

NONE OF THE ROW WERE RANKED WHEN ROBINSON WAS A CONTENDER AT MIDDLEWEIGHT.

AFTER 1942 NONE OF THE ROW WERE RANKED AT WELTERWEIGHT

AND NONE OF THEM WERE RANKED WHEN ROBINSON WAS WELTER CHAMP!

I ASKED YOU FOR THE INDIVIDUAL YEARS ROBINSON SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT THESE MEN?

I TOLD YOU ROBINSON WAS ALWAYS PREPARED TO FIGHT HEAVIER MEN WHEN THE FINANCIAL REWARDS WERE ACCEPTABLE.

GOD ALMIGHTY HE PROVED THIS ENOUGH DIDN'T HE ,FIGHTING LAMOTTA 6 TIMES! MAXIM?

HIS RESUME IS CRAMMED WITH HEAVIER MEN HE BEAT, AND PLENTY OF THEM WERE TOP TEN RANKED CLASS MEN!

ROBINSON FOUGHT FROM LIGHTWEIGHT TO LIGHT HEAVYWEIGHT!

WHY DO YOU THINK HE WAS CALLED THE P4P GREATEST?

YOU SAY ROBINSON DUCKED THESE MEN OUT OF FEAR

AT THE AGE OF 39 ROBINSON WAS FIGHTING NO 2 RANKED FULLMER.

AT THE AGE OF 39 HE WAS FIGHTING CHAMP PENDER.

AT 41 HE FOUGHT NO 3 DOWNES.

AT 42 HE TANGLED WITH NO 2 GIARDELLO.

AND AT 44 HE FOUGHT NO1 ARCHER.

DO THESE SEEM LIKE THE ACTIONS OF A COWARD TO YOU?

YOU HAVE NO ANSWERS, SO NOW YOU ARE DOING WHAT YOU ALWAYS DO, RUN AWAY!

YOU MAKE A THREAD ABOUT A SUBJECT OF WHICH YOU KNOW NOTHING

THEN BAIL OUT OF YOUR OWN THREAD WHEN YOU'RE IGNORANCE IS EXPOSED.


YOU'RE NOT ONLY ILLITERATE AND ****** YOU'RE ALSO A COWARD .

IF YOU WERE NOT SUCH A SAD ,AGENDA DRIVEN ,HATER YOU WOULD BE HILARIOUS.

WHAT A PATHETIC ABSURDITY YOU ARE!

QUOTE]

BTW. A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO I LISTENED TO A RECORDING OF JACK JOHNSON GIVING A ROUND BY ROUND SUMMMARY OF HIS JEFFRIES FIGHT.
VERY ENJOYABLE IT WAS TOO!
ALMOST AS ENJOYABLE AS IT HAS BEEN RIPPING YOU TO SHREDS ON THIS YOUR OWN THREAD!

KEEP THE JOKE THREADS COMING! WE ALL NEED A LAUGH IN THESE TROUBLED TIMES1

You've several times stated all the Murderers Row are in the IBHOF.They are not.
The following are inductees;
Marshall
Burley
Booker
Cocoa Kid
Williams

Those who are not;
Basora
Lytell
Wade
Bolden


Robinson fought 9 of the Rings HOF

Angott
Armstrong
Basilio
Fullmer
Zivic
Gavilan
Lamotta
Maxim
Graziano

He fought 11 of the IBHOF HOF Whose criteria for induction is somewhat less stringent.
Armstrong
Angott
Lamotta
Gavilan
Giardello
Olson
Turpin
Maxim
Zivic
Fullmer
Graziano
So you prattling on about being in the IBHOF was not a move of tactical brilliance was it !

I see you are posting everywhere but here ,on a thread that you started,par for the course when you have no rebuttal to offer.
DR ZERO

[Dr. Z]

@ Ivich, I told you the years he could have fought the murders row and Archie Moore. Those hall of fame guys. He ducked those guys. He never fought them. A hall of fame rating is superior to a ring magazine rating. Always will be.

All modern 1990 and 2000 fighters, all fighters inducted in the ring magazine were champion #1 or #2 at some point. But in the 1940 's and 1950's boxing was partly mob run and unfair in their rankings to black and brown men. Those are the facts. There was no hall of fame until the 1990's/


Live it. You will not answer my questions. Have fun playing with yourself.

You always do.

From 1941-1953. But Robinson avoided many of the top black talent of the times, men in the Hall of fame. ALL EIGHT of the names you listed.

You're inadvertently funny.

Tell me again who much he made vs Black Randy Turpin?

Tell me again how he would not fight at middle weight as a welter weight?

So much for your junk statements.

Bawahaha. You are a joke. I not longer wish to spend time on you.

- Dr. Z

[Ivich]

@ Ivich, I told you the years he could have fought the murders row and Archie Moore. Those hall of fame guys. He ducked those guys. He never fought them. A hall of fame rating is superior to a ring magazine rating. Always will be.

All modern 1990 and 2000 fighters, all fighters inducted in the ring magazine were champion #1 or #2 at some point. But in the 1940 's and 1950's boxing was partly mob run and unfair in their rankings to black and brown men. Those are the facts. There was no hall of fame until the 1990's/


Live it. You will not answer my questions. Have fun playing with yourself.

You always do.

Yeah you said 1941 to 1953
.What you left out was Robinson was never over 141lbs in1941 and he took on and beat the no 2 and no 3 guys who were rated ABOVE the ROW. You also left out none of the Row except for The Kid were ranked at welter after 1941 and Robinson beat Wilson who beat The Kid Twice
Not one member of The Row was ranked after 1948 so why should Robinson fight them,they had no rating and would not draw a big purse
Robinson was a retired from1952 until1955 so why you said he should have fought them up to1953 is a nonsense .
Moore was the number 1 ranked Lhvy when Robinson was yet to win the Welterweight title! So claims that he should have fought Moore are patently absurd!


You know Jack **** about The HOF. The real and original HOF was introduced by the Ring magazine in. 1954.
It was discontinued in1987.
The IBHOF started in1990

Another thing you got wrong is plenty of fighters inducted into the Modern category were non champions eg
Burley
Graham
Cocoa Kid
Bivins
Papp
Williams
Marshall

Neither were they ranked at number 2.Another little thing you made up!
IF NONE OF THESE MEN WERE RANKED AT EITHER WELTER OR MIDDLEWEIGHTWHEN ROBINSON WAS CHAMPION AND ALL OF THEM WERE RETIRED BY 1951;
How could Robinson have ducked
Cocoa Kid
Holman Williams
Jack Chase
After 1948? They were all retired .
How could he have ducked
Nate Bolden
Eddie Booker
After 1944? .They were retired.
Aaron Wade
Charley Burley
Both retired in1950

Bert Lytell retired in1951
You are ridiculous , and it has been my pleasure to demonstrate it !

[DooGee#33]

Im not as well versed on Burley's career as some of the posters in this thread. One thing that I always remembered is that in his later years Archie Moore was asked who the greatest he ever fought was and he said it was Charlie Burley.

I think Burley worked all day at his job, got called on very short notice and drove up and put Archie on the seat of his pants. Archie Moore fought as many good fighters as anyone I can think of.
Charley must have given him something to remember.

[Ivich]

Im not as well versed on Burley's career as some of the posters in this thread. One thing that I always remembered is that in his later years Archie Moore was asked who the greatest he ever fought was and he said it was Charlie Burley.

I think Burley worked all day at his job, got called on very short notice and drove up and put Archie on the seat of his pants. Archie Moore fought as many good fighters as anyone I can think of.
Charley must have given him something to remember.

Having read Harry Otty's book on Charley Burley and the Murderers Row,and Springs Toledo's Murderers Row and the comments Eddie Futch and Archie Moore made about them,I believe they were all excellent fighters, and several of them great ones.
However chronologically their primes were before Robinson's own peak.
None of them were ranked in any division when Robinson was champion ,those that were briefly ranked at Welterweight when Robinson was had men ranked above them that Robinson fought and beat.

I contend that you cannot be accused of ducking a man if he is not in your weight class,nor is he ranked, and that was the case with all these men after 1942 .In1942 Robinson was in his 2nd year as a pro and 21 years old.
Robinson did not win the Welterweight title until December 20th 1946,by then
Booker
Bolden
Marshall
Moore
Chase
Were all ranked light heavies , it is therefore totally ridiculous to accuse Robinson of ducking these men who were ranked 2 divisions above him.
The OP of this thread has a well documented history of tearing down great fighters with false narratives.

These include the following.
Joe Louis, because he was mob managed was the beneficiary of several crooked decisions.

Lennox Lewis avoided southpaws.

Jack Dempsey had a foreign object in his glove when he fought Willard.

Film of the Dempsey v Firpo fight was edited to cut out some of the time Dempsey was out of the ring.

Jack Johnson refused to fight.McVey,Jeannette,and Langford when he became champion.

Carlos Monzon preyed on smaller men,did not meet punchers, and was floored by Jorge Fernandez.

And also
The Johnson v Jeffries fight was level after 10 rds

The Jeffries v Corbett first fight was very close at the time of the ko.

The Ruhlin v Fitzsimmons fight was filmed.

The Johnson v Moran fight was close.

The Johnson v Flynn second fight was close.

Johnson was tko'd by GunBoat Smith in an exhibition.

All of these have been disproved, but will be repeated by him at every opportunity.

You will notice Jack Johnson comes in for more than his share of this muck spreading this is because he is the fighter Dr Z hates the most.