If Dempsey Had Defended Against Wills,Godfrey & Norfolk?

[Willie Pep 229]

Okay this is your best effort?
Jeff Clark was washed up and won just 8 of his 25 fights during Dempsey's title tenure.

Norfolk beat a washed up Johnson in1920 and 21 he also lost to him. 21 years old Dempsey fought Johnson in 1916!
Jeannette retired the year Dempsey won the title.!
Langford was nearly blind it would have been criminal to put him in with Dempsey when Jack was champ Sam lost to Dempsey sparring partner Bill Tate in1920 and also ran Lee Anderson15-8-10
In1921 Langford drew with2 journeymen,lost toAnderson and Tate again.
1922 Langford again lost to Tate and drew with 3 nobodies
1923 Bearcat Wright 5-6-5 ko'd Langford /You can't seriously suggest Dempsey ducked Langford when he was champ!


I asked you which HEAVYWEIGHTS OF NOTE Norfolk beat during Dempsey's reign as champ?

Clem Johnson?His record is17-30-3 and he was knocked out 12 times! He is NOT a heavyweight of note!

Arthur Pelkey? Norfolk stopped him in13 rds the first 10 rds belonged to Pelkey.


From the Panama Star & Herald. Pelkey dominated the fight for the first 10 rounds, before Norfolk took over.Pelkey was 36

They re-matched and Norfolk again stopped him in13 rds after being floored and being behind on points.''

Arthur Pelkey, one time aspirant for the world's heavy weight championship, was knocked out in thirteen rounds by a negro pugilist named "Kid" Norfolk, who claims the championship of the canal region. The bout was staged at Panama, and for the first nine sessions Pelkey's superior generalship gave him a big lead. In the seventh he almost dropped his opponent, but Norfolk, with remarkable ringcraft, weathered the round, and thereafter had all the advantage. In the thirteenth he sent Pelkey down for the count with a vicious right blow to the jaw. (Salt Lake Telegram, 1917-01-23) By coincidence, this was Norfolk's second 13-round knockdown of Pelkey in Panama. They also met on December 17, 1916, with the same outcome. After this fight, Norfolk sailed for the United States and never returned to Panama.
A year later Dempsey took out Pelkey in the first round.
Pelkey was not a heavyweight of note ,after the tragedy of the McCarty fight,his form took a nose dive and he was only fighting to pay off legal fees .

Norfolk beat Miske in1917 2 years BEFORE Dempsey won the title.

Norfolk won and lost to Greb.Greb was NEVER a heavyweight!

Greb was blind in one eye from their first meeting.Norfolk beat him on a dsq.
According to the Pittsburgh Post, Norfolk charged into Greb, head down, and butted him through the ropes and into the press section in round two. The referee should have disqualified Norfolk, but the fight continued. Norfolk intentionally punched Greb in the groin several times until Harry retaliated, which caused him to be disqualified. The crowd put up a terrific protest and the referee had to flee the ring. Flowers was a MIDDLE WEIGHT
A year after Dempsey beat Tommy Gibbons Gibbons stopped Norfolk in 6 rds
Norfolk's heavyweight scalps during Dempsey's reign were mostly over past it fringe guys. or sparring partner level men like Clay Turner who beat him twice Bill Tate and Jamaica Kid,all sparmates for Dempsey

.In conclusion you have produced NOT ONE HEAVYWEIGHT OF NOTE that Norfolk beat during Dempsey's championship years that would justify giving him a shot at Dempsey's crown!
87 wins a good 60 over nobodies.One of the most heavily padded records ever !
Take a look at their records!


Dismal Failure!

Why are you championing this guy's cause?

[Willie Pep 229]

Seems I messed up the quote again.

That reply was meant for whoever was championing Norfolk's claim to a title shot.

[Ivich]

Dr Z says Norfolk deserved a shot at Dempsey's title .When I asked him to name a heavyweight of note one whose form ,was decent ,whom Norfolk beat during Dempsey's title tenure he was unable to name one.
As I anticipated ,in an effort to muddy the waters he named Jeannette and Langford.
Jeannette retired the year Dempsey won the title.
Half blind Langford at that stage, was getting beat several times by Dempsey's sparring partner Bill Tate,and sundry journeymen.In 1923 Langford was ko'd by 5-6-5 trial horse Bear Cat Wright. Z offers Jeff Clarks name as a good win for Norfolk.During Dempsey's reign Clark had 26 fights and won just 8 of them,he was well past his sell by date!
In short there are no heavyweight names on Norfolk's resume during Dempsey's time as champ that amount to anything,none that would have made the five feet eight Norfolk a credible opponent for Jack.
I'm also damn sure that If Dempsey had defended against Norfolk,Z would be among the most vociferous in condemning him for fighting a short light heavyweight!
In1919 Norfolk lost to Dempsey spar mate Clay Turner.
1921 He lost to 161Lbs Harry Greb who was giving him17lbs.
1922 He was kod in2 rds by Wills. Drew with trial horse middleweight Jack Taylor and was beaten by ham and egger Wolf Larsen 10-12-0.
1923 He lost to Jim McCreary 16-11-3.
1924 He was stopped by Tommy Gibbons in6 rds and lost to Bob Lawson a journeyman.
In1925 Lawson kod him in1 round .
1926 Norfolk was slung out for not trying against Todd Morgan.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Jack Dempsey didn't fight in 1924-25. He was still busy trying to make the fruitless Wills fight.

If the political authorities in the big markets didn't want him fighting Wills, they sure ain't wanting him to fight such an ugly fighter as Godfrey or Norfolk.

It's like some here live on Pink Venus with their Blue Sun with Tinkerbell.

[Marchegiano]

Apart from 35 years old on the slide Jeff Clark which heavyweight of note did Norfolk beat to make him a viable challenger for Dempsey?
Godfrey was only realistically credible as a challenger in1925.
The only black fighter who deserved a shot was Wills.That's ONE black fighter,which does not equal MANY.MANY
If you disagree, make a case for others and I will happily debate them with you.
Lets have some names!

Oh, this is more semantics than disagreement actually.

I skimmed a list of names and assumed we were talking about the guys who challenged not necessarily the guys we feel would have been a challenge. At this point in the thread that's pretty much all y'all're debating. So, I am just going to relax and read, may chime in again at some point but at this very moment I feel sheepish for misunderstanding, skimming, and not really getting the jist before I went typing.



Just for the sake of conclusions, as I recall it, Panama was brought into Dempsey's camp for a Greb stand-in and ended up looking the better of the two. He then attempted to parlay the praise he had gotten into a match with Jack, and so is a challenger. That's the sort of challenger I meant when I said "many, many". Just one of many black guys who wanted a fight with dempsey.

Fairly certain I got the story from Sundowners and it's definitely been a while so I might have messed it up but I am super confident Panama did want a shot.


Again, not exactly what y'all're talking about. At least, not anymore.


I should have made my post a quote under Willow's:

Harry Wills, George Godfrey, Kid Norfolk, Bill Tate, Brad Simmons, Long Tom Hawkins, Al Walker, "Big" Bill Hartwell, Mack House, Sam Baker, Dynamite Jackson, Larry Gains, Neil Clisby, Bearcat Wright, Roscoe Hall, Bob Lawson, Battling Jim Johnson, Sam Baker, John Lester Johnson, Tango Kid, Tut Jackson, Topeka Jack Johnson, William "Rough House" Ware, Cuban Bobby Brown, "Cowboy" Billy Owens, Clyde Colvin, Seal Harris, Jeff Clark, Jack Thompson, Lee Anderson, Willie Henry, Sandy Layne, Andy Johnson, George Christian, Tom Overby, Kid Jackson, Clem Johnson, Buddy Jackson, George Kid Cotton, Rufe Cameron, Cleve Hawkins, "Fighting" Bob Lee, Hale "KO" Brown, Pinky Lewis, Battling Jim McCreary, Bill Watkins, Jack Livingstone, George Robinson, Battling Norfolk, Battling Randolph, Jim Cameron.........Dempsey would have beaten em' all.

The color line was not Dempsey's to draw. That was society's issue.

I think strong he beats em' all.

In that list, I feel, Panama deserves a shout too.

[Dr. Z]

Dr Z says Norfolk deserved a shot at Dempsey's title .When I asked him to name a heavyweight of note one whose form ,was decent ,whom Norfolk beat during Dempsey's title tenure he was unable to name one.
As I anticipated ,in an effort to muddy the waters he named Jeannette and Langford.
Jeannette retired the year Dempsey won the title.
Half blind Langford at that stage, was getting beat several times by Dempsey's sparring partner Bill Tate,and sundry journeymen.In 1923 Langford was ko'd by 5-6-5 trial horse Bear Cat Wright. Z offers Jeff Clarks name as a good win for Norfolk.During Dempsey's reign Clark had 26 fights and won just 8 of them,he was well past his sell by date!
In short there are no heavyweight names on Norfolk's resume during Dempsey's time as champ that amount to anything,none that would have made the five feet eight Norfolk a credible opponent for Jack.
I'm also damn sure that If Dempsey had defended against Norfolk,Z would be among the most vociferous in condemning him for fighting a short light heavyweight!
In1919 Norfolk lost to Dempsey spar mate Clay Turner.
1921 He lost to 161Lbs Harry Greb who was giving him17lbs.
1922 He was kod in2 rds by Wills. Drew with trial horse middleweight Jack Taylor and was beaten by ham and egger Wolf Larsen 10-12-0.
1923 He lost to Jim McCreary 16-11-3.
1924 He was stopped by Tommy Gibbons in6 rds and lost to Bob Lawson a journeyman.
In1925 Lawson kod him in1 round .
1926 Norfolk was slung out for not trying against Todd Morgan.

LIAR. I named Miske.. He was a heavyweight Dempsey gave a title shot too!

I also named other men he beat, someone named Greb. And some other men who fought at heavyweight.

You are a sad joke.

You can't even quote me in full context. Instead you pretend what you cherry pick means something.

[Ivich]

LIAR. I named Miske.. He was a heavyweight Dempsey gave a title shot too!

I also named other men he beat, someone named Greb. And some other men who fought at heavyweight.

You are a sad joke.

You can't even quote me in full context. Instead you pretend what you cherry pick means something.

I never said you didn't name Miske.I've already addressed this but once more , just for you;
Norfolk beat Miske in1917, 2 years BEFORE Dempsey won the title.

I stipulated heavyweights of note beaten whilst Dempsey was champion.

Dempsey did give a title shot to Miske and ko'd him, becoming the only man to do so.
You don't seriousIy think I am going to re-post your entire post each time I reply to you do you?

BOTTOM LINE
I asked you to name a heavyweight of note that Norfolk beat during Dempsey's time as champion and you have been unable to do so.

Type as many insults as you like,you will not alter that basic fact.

[billeau2]

Oh, this is more semantics than disagreement actually.

I skimmed a list of names and assumed we were talking about the guys who challenged not necessarily the guys we feel would have been a challenge. At this point in the thread that's pretty much all y'all're debating. So, I am just going to relax and read, may chime in again at some point but at this very moment I feel sheepish for misunderstanding, skimming, and not really getting the jist before I went typing.



Just for the sake of conclusions, as I recall it, Panama was brought into Dempsey's camp for a Greb stand-in and ended up looking the better of the two. He then attempted to parlay the praise he had gotten into a match with Jack, and so is a challenger. That's the sort of challenger I meant when I said "many, many". Just one of many black guys who wanted a fight with dempsey.

Fairly certain I got the story from Sundowners and it's definitely been a while so I might have messed it up but I am super confident Panama did want a shot.


Again, not exactly what y'all're talking about. At least, not anymore.


I should have made my post a quote under Willow's:



In that list, I feel, Panama deserves a shout too.

Marg are you back? Couldn't PM you looks like you made this post recently. Maybe it is wishful thinking...

[Ivich]

Oh, this is more semantics than disagreement actually.

I skimmed a list of names and assumed we were talking about the guys who challenged not necessarily the guys we feel would have been a challenge. At this point in the thread that's pretty much all y'all're debating. So, I am just going to relax and read, may chime in again at some point but at this very moment I feel sheepish for misunderstanding, skimming, and not really getting the jist before I went typing.



Just for the sake of conclusions, as I recall it, Panama was brought into Dempsey's camp for a Greb stand-in and ended up looking the better of the two. He then attempted to parlay the praise he had gotten into a match with Jack, and so is a challenger. That's the sort of challenger I meant when I said "many, many". Just one of many black guys who wanted a fight with dempsey.

Fairly certain I got the story from Sundowners and it's definitely been a while so I might have messed it up but I am super confident Panama did want a shot.


Again, not exactly what y'all're talking about. At least, not anymore.


I should have made my post a quote under Willow's:



In that list, I feel, Panama deserves a shout too.

_Panama Joe Gans may have wanted a title shot,the question is did he deserve one?

I mentioned this to you before,perhaps you have forgotten although it was only a couple of days ago. Gans was a 5 feet 7 welterweight who never scaled above the middle 150's.Gans also never fought anyone above middleweight,Dempsey brought him into camp to help with his speed.

"According to former boxer and referee George Barton, in his 1957 book My Lifetime in Sports, welterweight Panama Joe Gans was a sparring partner for Jack Dempsey in preparation for Dempsey's 1919 title bout with Jess Willard. Dempsey used Gans for the purposes of developing speed"

Do you think welterweight Gans should have gotten a title bout with Dempsey?
YES
NO

[Marchegiano]

_Panama Joe Gans may have wanted a title shot,the question is did he deserve one?

I mentioned this to you before,perhaps you have forgotten although it was only a couple of days ago. Gans was a 5 feet 7 welterweight who never scaled above the middle 150's.Gans also never fought anyone above middleweight,Dempsey brought him into camp to help with his speed.

Do you think welterweight Gans should have gotten a title bout with Dempsey?
YES
NO

I read the first line, rolled my eyes, and decided to tell you to continue your day in peace.

If you're not going to read my post then I am not reading yours. Simple.