If Dempsey Had Defended Against Wills,Godfrey & Norfolk?

[QueensburyRules]

Listen silly bollocks ,this is a public forum,which means any member can reply to any post.
Now why don't you **** off, play with your toys and let the adults talk?

- - First U say U a boxer, then U say U gargle French wine wif Frechfried snails.

U not a boxer and only like to baby rattle that single BB in U noggin.

[Marchegiano]

During Dempsey's title reign,the five feet seven Gans never weighed over 156lbs.

Dempsey used Gans as a sparring partner to help with his speed.

This makes him not one of the many, many black challengers to Dempsey's title?

[Ivich]

This makes him not one of the many, many black challengers to Dempsey's title?

Apart from 34 years old on the slide Jeff Clark which heavyweight of note did Norfolk beat to make him a viable challenger for Dempsey?
Godfrey was only realistically credible as a challenger in1925.
The only black fighter who deserved a shot was Wills.That's ONE black fighter,which does not equal MANY.MANY
If you disagree, make a case for others and I will happily debate them with you.
Lets have some names!

[Ivich]

1 ) I agree with the Godfrey comment, but there is no way Dempsey would make this fight. At any point of his career.

2 ) Dempsey fought plenty of men in the 170's and 180's Norfolk size. Actually he fought one in the 160's. Why does Norfolk, who beat men bigger than Dempsey and beat guys like Greb who Dempsey clearly ducked. Miske got a title shot when he was a sick man dying from bright disease. I think Miske and Greb would qualify as Dempsey's third best opponent beaten. In addition Norfolk beat John Lester Johnson, Dempsey did not. There are other common opponents.

I will wait to hear your replay and do quote me in full context please. I look forward to continuing this conversation with you.

PS. Clark was 33 and 34 by the way when Norfolk beat him, not 35 as you ascertain. At least Clark wasn't 37 an inactive for 3 + years, that was Willard when Dempsey fought him.

I asked which of Norfolk's wins over heavyweights merited a title shot with Dempsey?
You haven't answered my question.
Will you now do so?
I never mentioned Norfolk's size.
.Before their third fight Miske made a public statement saying he was in fine condition for their fight,and his long winning streak, 20 fights without defeat over the next 2 years after their fight ,confirms this was true.Among those were wins over Fulton,Gibbons Renault x2,Brennab
Willard was the champion, to win the title Dempsey had to fight him,should he have declined saying he is too old? Did Willard do that when he got his chance against 37years old Johnson? Did Jeffries when he challenged 37 years old Fitzsimmons?

Do try and at least be a little consistent!
Yes Norfolk beat Johnson,twice ,he also lost to him .Dempsey was 21 when he lost to Johnson in1916.Norfolk fought him in1919 1920 and 1921

Johnson was going through a losing spell of 8.or 9 defeats with only 1 win,[over Norfolk],he was hardly the same fighter he had been against the young Dempsey
During Dempsey's title reign Clark had 25 fights he won just 8 of them! Norfolk beating a washed up Clark means Jack ****!

[Dr. Z]

I asked which of Norfolk's wins over heavyweights merited a title shot with Dempsey?
You haven't answered my question.
Will you now do so?
I never mentioned Norfolk's size.
.Before their third fight Miske made a public statement saying he was in fine condition for their fight,and his long winning streak, 20 fights without defeat over the next 2 years after their fight ,confirms this was true.Among those were wins over Fulton,Gibbons Renault x2,Brennab
Willard was the champion, to win the title Dempsey had to fight him,should he have declined saying he is too old? Did Willard do that when he got his chance against 37years old Johnson? Did Jeffries when he challenged 37 years old Fitzsimmons?

Do try and at least be a little consistent!
Yes Norfolk beat Johnson,twice ,he also lost to him .Dempsey was 21 when he lost to Johnson in1916.Norfolk fought him in1919 1920 and 1921

Johnson was going through a losing spell of 8.or 9 defeats with only 1 win,[over Norfolk],he was hardly the same fighter he had been against the young Dempsey
During Dempsey's title reign Clark had 25 fights he won just 8 of them! Norfolk beating a washed up Clark means Jack ****!

Many errors and mistakes by you here. Do I really have to tell you. Why do you switch topics? Fitz was 36 for Jeffries by the way, not 37.

As for which wins over other heavyweights can't you figure that out yourself? I will really in detail if requested.

[Ivich]

Many errors and mistakes by you here. Do I really have to tell you. Why do you switch topics? Fitz was 36 for Jeffries by the way, not 37.

As for which wins over other heavyweights can't you figure that out yourself? I will really in detail if requested.

You will really in detail? Which wins over heavyweights OF NOTE during Dempsey's reign is the question.

I know the answer,I'm just waiting for you to inflate some journeyman;s record and say thats a good win for Norfolk.

[Willie Pep 229]

Someone should start a thread with a poll.

Which fighter do you think has the most haters on BSH?

Dempsey
Johnson
Ali
Louis
Marciano
Mayweather Jr.
Jones
Toney
Tyson
Hollyfield
Other

[Dr. Z]

Ivich



Well Kid Norfolk won 87 fights as I said fight some fights vs. Dempsey's opponents. For openers he holds a win over Harry Greb, who savaged some of Dempsey's opponents and Dempsey clearly ducked Greb. Look who Greb beat. You will see some of Dempsey title opponents.

He also beat John Lester Johnson twice, remember he beat Dempsey.

Other notable wins include Tiger Flowers, Clem Johsnon, Jeff Clark ( he was good enough for Dempsey but he passed on him ...along with Langford and Jeannete who were old! )

Norfolk also beat Billy Miske, a Dempsey title opponent, before Dempsey did when he was a sick man.

And Arthur Pelky who was the " white heavyweight champion of the world. And Gunboat Smith who beat him. There is more.

This is but, a quick glance of his record. I would say without a doubt Norolk qualified for a title shot with Dempsey. Now won't you agree? But Norfolk was Black and Dempsey only fought one black man and lost that one. Norfolk deserved a title shot, but like Wills it never came.

[Ivich]

Ivich



Well Kid Norfolk won 87 fights as I said fight some fights vs. Dempsey's opponents. For openers he holds a win over Harry Greb, who savaged some of Dempsey's opponents and Dempsey clearly ducked Greb. Look who Greb beat. You will see some of Dempsey title opponents.

He also beat John Lester Johnson twice, remember he beat Dempsey.

Other notable wins include Tiger Flowers, Clem Johsnon, Jeff Clark ( he was good enough for Dempsey but he passed on him ...along with Langford and Jeannete who were old! )

Norfolk also beat Billy Miske, a Dempsey title opponent, before Dempsey did when he was a sick man.

And Arthur Pelky who was the " white heavyweight champion of the world. And Gunboat Smith who beat him. There is more.

This is but, a quick glance of his record. I would say without a doubt Norolk qualified for a title shot with Dempsey. Now won't you agree? But Norfolk was Black and Dempsey only fought one black man and lost that one. Norfolk deserved a title shot, but like Wills it never came.

Okay this is your best effort?
Jeff Clark was washed up and won just 8 of his 25 fights during Dempsey's title tenure.

Norfolk beat a washed up Johnson in1920 and 21 he also lost to him. 21 years old Dempsey fought Johnson in 1916!
Jeannette retired the year Dempsey won the title.!
Langford was nearly blind it would have been criminal to put him in with Dempsey when Jack was champ Sam lost to Dempsey sparring partner Bill Tate in1920 and also ran Lee Anderson15-8-10
In1921 Langford drew with2 journeymen,lost toAnderson and Tate again.
1922 Langford again lost to Tate and drew with 3 nobodies
1923 Bearcat Wright 5-6-5 ko'd Langford /You can't seriously suggest Dempsey ducked Langford when he was champ!


I asked you which HEAVYWEIGHTS OF NOTE Norfolk beat during Dempsey's reign as champ?

Clem Johnson?His record is17-30-3 and he was knocked out 12 times! He is NOT a heavyweight of note!

Arthur Pelkey? Norfolk stopped him in13 rds the first 10 rds belonged to Pelkey.


From the Panama Star & Herald. Pelkey dominated the fight for the first 10 rounds, before Norfolk took over.Pelkey was 36

They re-matched and Norfolk again stopped him in13 rds after being floored and being behind on points.''

Arthur Pelkey, one time aspirant for the world's heavy weight championship, was knocked out in thirteen rounds by a negro pugilist named "Kid" Norfolk, who claims the championship of the canal region. The bout was staged at Panama, and for the first nine sessions Pelkey's superior generalship gave him a big lead. In the seventh he almost dropped his opponent, but Norfolk, with remarkable ringcraft, weathered the round, and thereafter had all the advantage. In the thirteenth he sent Pelkey down for the count with a vicious right blow to the jaw. (Salt Lake Telegram, 1917-01-23) By coincidence, this was Norfolk's second 13-round knockdown of Pelkey in Panama. They also met on December 17, 1916, with the same outcome. After this fight, Norfolk sailed for the United States and never returned to Panama.
A year later Dempsey took out Pelkey in the first round.
Pelkey was not a heavyweight of note ,after the tragedy of the McCarty fight,his form took a nose dive and he was only fighting to pay off legal fees .

Norfolk beat Miske in1917 2 years BEFORE Dempsey won the title.

Norfolk won and lost to Greb.Greb was NEVER a heavyweight!

Greb was blind in one eye from their first meeting.Norfolk beat him on a dsq.
According to the Pittsburgh Post, Norfolk charged into Greb, head down, and butted him through the ropes and into the press section in round two. The referee should have disqualified Norfolk, but the fight continued. Norfolk intentionally punched Greb in the groin several times until Harry retaliated, which caused him to be disqualified. The crowd put up a terrific protest and the referee had to flee the ring. Flowers was a MIDDLE WEIGHT
A year after Dempsey beat Tommy Gibbons Gibbons stopped Norfolk in 6 rds
Norfolk's heavyweight scalps during Dempsey's reign were mostly over past it fringe guys. or sparring partner level men like Clay Turner who beat him twice Bill Tate and Jamaica Kid,all sparmates for Dempsey

.In conclusion you have produced NOT ONE HEAVYWEIGHT OF NOTE that Norfolk beat during Dempsey's championship years that would justify giving him a shot at Dempsey's crown!
87 wins a good 60 over nobodies.One of the most heavily padded records ever !
Take a look at their records!


Dismal Failure!

[Dr. Z]

Okay this is your best effort?
Jeff Clark was washed up and won just 8 of his 25 fights during Dempsey's title tenure. Norfolk beat a washed up Johnson in1920 and 21 he also lost to him. 21 years old Dempsey fought Johnson in 1916!

I asked you which HEAVYWEIGHTS OF NOTE Norfolk beat during Dempsey's reign as champ?
Clem Johnson?His record is17-30-30 and he was knocked out 12 times! He is NOT a heavyweight of note!

Arthur Pelkey? Norfolk stopped him in13 rds the first 10 rds belonged to Pelkey.


From the Panama Star & Herald. Pelkey dominated the fight for the first 10 rounds, before Norfolk took over.

They re-matched and Norfolk again stopped him in13 rds after being floored and being behind on points.''

Arthur Pelkey, one time aspirant for the world's heavy weight championship, was knocked out in thirteen rounds by a negro pugilist named "Kid" Norfolk, who claims the championship of the canal region. The bout was staged at Panama, and for the first nine sessions Pelkey's superior generalship gave him a big lead. In the seventh he almost dropped his opponent, but Norfolk, with remarkable ringcraft, weathered the round, and thereafter had all the advantage. In the thirteenth he sent Pelkey down for the count with a vicious right blow to the jaw. (Salt Lake Telegram, 1917-01-23) By coincidence, this was Norfolk's second 13-round knockdown of Pelkey in Panama. They also met on December 17, 1916, with the same outcome. After this fight, Norfolk sailed for the United States and never returned to Panama.
A year later Dempsey took out Pelkey in the first round.
Pelkey was not a heavyweight of note ,after the tragedy of the McCarty figh t,his form took a nose dive and he was only fighting to pay off legal fees .

Norfolk beat Miske in1917 2 years BEFORE Dempsey won the title.

Norfolk won and lost to Greb.Greb was NEVER a heavyweight!

Greb was blind in one eye from their first meeting.Norfolk beat him on a dsq.
According to the Pittsburgh Post, Norfolk charged into Greb, head down, and butted him through the ropes and into the press section in round two. The referee should have disqualified Norfolk, but the fight continued. Norfolk intentionally punched Greb in the groin several times until Harry retaliated, which caused him to be disqualified. The crowd put up a terrific protest and the referee had to flee the ring. Flowers was a MIDDLE WEIGHT
A year after Dempsey beat Tommy Gibbons Gibbons stopped Norfolk in 6 rds
Norfolk's heavyweight scalps during Dempsey's reign were mostly over past it fringe guys. or sparring partner level men like Clay Turner who beat him twice Bill Tate and Jamaica Kid,all sparmates for Dempsey

.In conclusion you have produced NOT ONE HEAVYWEIGHT OF NOTE that Norfolk beat during Dempsey's championship years that would justify giving him a shot at Dempsey's crown!
Dismal Failure!

Fool, he beat Miske who Dempsey gave a title shot too. Lol, was he a heavyweight of note?

Now your moving goal posts and making excuses for Dempsey, who never was a 200+ pound man himself, and lost SEVERAL times to sub 200 pound men.

Greb beat Dempsey title match opponents such as Tommy Gibbons and Bill Brennan ( 194 lbs ) ( who gave Dempsey a rough go . ) Get was 170 pounds in the 1920's he was heavier that some of Dempsey title opponent and some other men Dempsey fought! But Not heavier than Fat Willie Meehan who beat Dempsey.

You are showing the board your KSAB.

Tell me the records of Dempsey sparring partners again, like Big Bill Tate You love to prop him up.

Really you don't want me to continue this debate, do you?

I have made my points, corrected you in this thread, and presented facts.

It's over Ivich.