If Dempsey Had Defended Against Wills,Godfrey & Norfolk?

[Dr. Z]

Yes he fought heavyweights,what he didn't do is beat any heavyweights of note during Dempsey's time as champ,and that I have conclusively proven!
Norfolk was a simply filthily dirty fighter,in their 2nd fight he butted Greb out through the ropes and repeatedly hit him low.he should have been slung out.
The boxing commission suspended both Greb and Norfolk six months for fighting after the bell. The Boston Globe reported that "for the first five rounds, Greb was outclassed." However, according to the Pittsburgh Post, Norfolk charged into Greb, head down, and butted him through the ropes and into the press section in round two. The referee should have disqualified Norfolk, but the fight continued. Norfolk intentionally punched Greb in the groin several times until Harry retaliated, which caused him to be disqualified. The crowd put up a terrific protest and the referee had to flee the ring. The "last two rounds were fought along the foulest possible lines."

In their 1st fight the 161lbs Greb gave him17 1/2 lbs and beat him
Norfolk, who was 17 1/2 pounds heavier than Greb, won four of the first five rounds, and scored a flash knockdown in round three, not hurting Greb. Greb won every one of the last five rounds. Greb "smothered him with a two-fisted attack, " as Norfolk tired, and the Kid was "all at sea." Referee Yock Henniger said the next day that he would have given it to Greb if a decision was allowed. Norfolk suffered a badly cut eye. Apparently Greb held Norfolk in too much respect until he realized that the Kid could not hurt him. (Reports from the Pittsburgh Post.) It is sometimes said that Norfolk thumbed Greb in this fight, leading to his loss of sight in one eye. However, there is nothing in the account from the Post to indicate anything of that sort. According to Bill Paxton in The Fearless Harry Greb, a punch delivered by Norfolk in this fight may have initiated a retinal detachment which eventually caused Greb to lose his sight in the right eye. This idea is based on the fact that Greb reportedly started experiencing some unusual visual effects after this fight.Greb had a battle with Chuck Wiggins the following week, whereas Norfolk had to take several months off.

Being in the HOF doesnt mean you should deserve a title shot with Jack Dempsey, Wills took Norfolk out in2 rds during Dempsey reign.
When they came out of their corners in the second, Norfolk went into a clinch and a moment later fell backward to the floor, taking the full count. No one at the ringside saw the blow that felled him.

After the count, he walked to his corner and did not seem hurt. Wills said the blow was a short inside right to the jaw. Referee Kid McPartland told newspaper men that he saw the blow delivered and that it did not travel more than six inches. The crowd expressed its disapproval of the manner in which the match was terminated. It did not appear to them that Norfolk had been hit.

However, to prove that he really went down under a powerful punch, Norfolk displayed a deep cut in his mouth caused by the blow. In the first round, Norfolk took the aggressive and swung a left to Wills' head, Wills returned a straight right to the chin and followed Norfolk into a corner, landing a left to the jaw.

They sparred for an opening. Wills landed a light left to the body, and Norfolk fell heavily to the floor when he missed a long right swing to the body. Wills landed a left jab at the bell. In the second, they met in a clinch, and after a short interchange, Norfolk fell away from Wills, landing heavily on his shoulders after twenty-six seconds of fighting. Wills said he had floored Norfolk with a short left to the body and an inside short right to the jaw."

Gibbons stopped him in 6.


In his next fight Norfolk was ko'd in the 1st round by third rater Bob Lawson!

FOR THE LAST TIME. WTF DID NORFOLK DO DURING DEMPSEY'S CHAMPIONSHIP YEARS TO JUSTIFY A TITLE SHOT?

I told you to research it, but you did not. Boy 1919 the year Dempsey won the title Norfolk missed you time line by less than a month! He also beat John Lester Johnson while Dempsey was champion. You know he was a heavyweight that holds a win over Dempsey before and beat the Jeff Clark ho was 33, not 34 as you one again incorrectly claim. I am correct by saying this. All of this happed in 1919.

1919-06-09	182	180		Billy Miske	50 9 15		Forbes Field, Pittsburgh	W-NWS	10/10		event bout score wiki
ref: Eddie Kennedy Newspaper decision for Norfolk from Harry Keck (Pittsburgh Gazette Times; easy win, Norfolk better in all 10 rounds) and Pittsburgh Post (it was a close fight). Jim Jab of the Pittsburgh Press stated Miske put up a poor fight and that Norfolk won by a wide margin .

You can not produce a list of ring magazine ranked heavyweights from 1919-1923 at heavyweight so you theory that he did not beat a heavyweight if note is empty. Now I'm serving your own medicine! Do you like it? Prove what I wrote is incorrect. You can't and remain a joke.

[Ivich]

I told you to research it, but you did not. Boy 1919 the year Dempsey won the title Norfolk missed you time line by less than a month! He also beat John Lester Johnson while Dempsey was champion. You know he was a heavyweight that holds a win over Dempsey before and beat the Jeff Clark ho was 33, not 34 as you one again incorrectly claim. I am correct by saying this. All of this happed in 1919.

1919-06-09	182	180		Billy Miske	50 9 15		Forbes Field, Pittsburgh	W-NWS	10/10		event bout score wiki
ref: Eddie Kennedy Newspaper decision for Norfolk from Harry Keck (Pittsburgh Gazette Times; easy win, Norfolk better in all 10 rounds) and Pittsburgh Post (it was a close fight). Jim Jab of the Pittsburgh Press stated Miske put up a poor fight and that Norfolk won by a wide margin.

Johnson was washed up he beat Dempsey in1916 when Jack was 21 irrelevant to this discussion.
Clark was washed up he manged only 8 wins in 25 fights during Dempsey's reign.
You've got nothing and you've showed nothing! I've been looking at Norfolk's resume for 2 days!

60 of his 87 wins were over nobodies LOOK IT UP! GAME SET AND MATCH!

[Dr. Z]

@ Ivich,


I told you to research it, but you did not. Boy 1919 the year Dempsey won the title Norfolk missed you time line by less than a month! He also beat John Lester Johnson while Dempsey was champion. You know he was a heavyweight that holds a win over Dempsey before and beat the Jeff Clark ho was 33, not 34 as you one again incorrectly claim. I am correct by saying this. All of this happed in 1919I

You can not produce a list of ring magazine ranked heavyweights from 1919-1923 at heavyweight so you theory that he did not beat a heavyweight if note is empty. Now I'm serving your own medicine! Do you like it? Prove what I wrote is incorrect. You can't and remain a joke.

I had formatting issues, hopefully you can read this and understand and accpet the truth. Hopefully that is...

[Ivich]

@ Ivich,


I told you to research it, but you did not. Boy 1919 the year Dempsey won the title Norfolk missed you time line by less than a month! He also beat John Lester Johnson while Dempsey was champion. You know he was a heavyweight that holds a win over Dempsey before and beat the Jeff Clark ho was 33, not 34 as you one again incorrectly claim. I am correct by saying this. All of this happed in 1919I

You can not produce a list of ring magazine ranked heavyweights from 1919-1923 at heavyweight so you theory that he did not beat a heavyweight if note is empty. Now I'm serving your own medicine! Do you like it? Prove what I wrote is incorrect. You can't and remain a joke.

I had formatting issues, hopefully you can read this and understand and accpet the truth. Hopefully that is...

LesterJohnson had won just 1 of his last 8 fights when Norfolk beat him ,and Johnson also beat Norfolk,why do you keep mentioning him as though he was someone special?

I can easily ascertain the merits of Norfolk's record against heavyweights in Dempsey's reign by looking at their respective records! The fact that you repeatedly state Norfolk beat Lester Johnson just emphasizes how terribly thin his resume against class heavies is.!
Johnson was 22-19-4! here is a report .

"Newspaper decision from the Detroit Free Press (Herb Goldman). This was a dismal fight for eight rounds, with Johnson doing little except falling into clinches. Things livened up in the last two rounds when the promoter threatened to not pay the participants." Johnson was NEVER a heavyweight of note

From May 1917 until he retired in April1924 Jeff Clark had 46 fights.
HE WON JUST TEN OF THEM!

Now you can waffle as much as you like, but it won't add any noted heavies to Norfolk's resume!
You are not only beaten on this, you are absolutely annihilated!!!

Very Gratifying!LOL

[Dr. Z]

LesterJohnson had won just 1 of his lasy8 fights when Norfolk beat him and Johnson also beat Norfolk,why do you keep mentioning him as though he was someone special? I can easily ascertain the merits of Norfolk's record against heavyweights in Dempsey's reign by looking at their respective records! The fact that you repeatedly state Norfolk beat Lester Johnson just emphasizes how terribly thin his resume against class heavies is.!
Johnson was 22-19-4! here is a report .

"Newspaper decision from the Detroit Free Press (Herb Goldman). This was a dismal fight for eight rounds, with Johnson doing little except falling into clinches. Things livened up in the last two rounds when the promoter threatened to not pay the participants." Johnson was NEVER a heavyweight of note

From May 1917 until he retired in April1924 Jeff Clark had 46 fights.
HE WON JUST TEN OF THEM!

Now you can waffle as much as you like, but it won't add any noted heavies to Norfolk's resume!
You are not only beaten on this, you are absolutely annihilated!!!

Very Gratifying!LOL

Hmmmm... nothing on Norfolk's wins over Miske in June 1919? Tell us why? Don't duck this point! Was that significant? Do you think? You suck. Keep moving those goal posts.

I own you and your Dempsey fan boys like statements.

Newspaper decision for Norfolk from Harry Keck (Pittsburgh Gazette Times; easy win, Norfolk better in all 10 rounds) and Pittsburgh Post (it was a close fight). Jim Jab of the Pittsburgh Press stated Miske put up a poor fight and that Norfolk won by a wide margin.

[Ivich]

Hmmmm... nothing on Norfolk's wins over Miske in June 1919? Tell us why? Don't duck this point! Was that significant? Do you think? You suck. Keep moving those goal posts.

I own you and your Dempsey fan boys like statements.

Dempsey won the title on the 4th of July 1919.Last time I looked at a calendar July came AFTER June! lol I've moved no gaol posts my criteria has remained the same.
"Which wins over heavyweights OF NOTE during Dempsey's reign is the question".Post dated

08-14-2023, 04:35 PM two days ago!

You are the one trying to introduce wins BEFORE Dempsey's reign , and you are doing this,as I predicted you would ,because Norfolk does not have any DURING his reign ! LOL

[Willie Pep 229]

They both lost in '26. Dempsey didn't look good either. He then beat Sharkey in a fight some thought he was on his way to losing, but he beat him with a low blow. I don't think you can say how they would look against each other at that point with any certainty. I mean that goes without saying because it's a fantasy fight at this point, but I think you get the point I'm trying to make. Wills was older than Dempsey and maybe more worn. Could he have put together a great showing against the man who ducked him for multiple, multiple years for the title? Maybe.....

But it's all opinion. You are certainly entitled to yours. I rarely give my opinion on who takes fantasy fights because there are way too many variables. Every time we are asked to choose a winner in these fantasy fights, Fat Andy and Joshua pop into my head

Take out the one line regarding who slipped futher, it is not important.

My point is, either way, Wills or Dempsey, the 1926 fight, from our early 21st century POV (with 20-20 hindsight) we wouldn't be giving either fighter much credit for the win.

It should have been in '22. Then it would have meant something today. E.g. Money vs Pac Man

[travestyny]

Take out the one line regarding who slipped futher, it is not important.

My point is, either way, Wills or Dempsey, the 1926 fight, from our early 21st century POV (with 20-20 hindsight) we wouldn't be giving either fighter much credit for the win.

It should have been in '22. Then it would have meant something today. E.g. Money vs Pac Man

Eh, I don't know about that though. We'll have to agree to disagree.

It depends on who you ask. I give Mayweather some credit for beating Pac, though of course it would have been a better fight if it happened earlier and would garner more credit sure, but I don't completely dismiss it at all. If Wills beat Dempsey, or Dempsey beat Wills, I would give them credit. Not credit for winning when both were at their best, of course, but I wouldn't completely dismiss it.

I'm pretty sure a lot of fight fans give Tunney credit for beating Dempsey, for example. Should we say Tunney deserves no credit at all?

I do agree it should have been in '22.

[Dr. Z]

Eh, I don't know about that though. We'll have to agree to disagree.

It depends on who you ask. I give Mayweather some credit for beating Pac, though of course it would have been a better fight if it happened earlier and would garner more credit sure, but I don't completely dismiss it at all. If Wills beat Dempsey, or Dempsey beat Wills, I would give them credit. Not credit for winning when both were at their best, of course, but I wouldn't completely dismiss it.

I'm pretty sure a lot of fight fans give Tunney credit for beating Dempsey, for example. Should we say Tunney deserves no credit at all?

I do agree it should have been in '22.

Dempsey had not intention of fighting Wills in 1922 or anytime for that matter. He simply could have picked another state it you really use that excuse. Dempsey ducked Greb, and didn't face Godfrey or Norfolk either. Not a bad slip and duck defense, right?

When he finally fight a top contender, he fouled Sharkey in the shameful KO, and got beaten down at age 32 by Tunney losing 18 or 19 of 20 rounds. If either fight was 15 rounds, Tunney would have knocked him out. After the final bell in the 10th round Dempsey asked his cornerman man to help him find Tunney because he could not see well. Dempsey wanted to shake his hand. What if this fight had been 15 rounds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrpmv_zOa0k

[Willie Pep 229]

Dempsey had not intention of fighting Wills in 1922 or anytime for that matter. He simply could have picked another state it you really use that excuse. Dempsey ducked Greb, and didn't face Godfrey or Norfolk either. Not a bad slip and duck defense, right?

When he finally fight a top contender, he fouled Sharkey in the shameful KO, and got beaten down at age 32 by Tunney losing 18 or 19 of 20 rounds. If either fight was 15 rounds, Tunney would have knocked him out. After the final bell in the 10th round Dempsey asked his cornerman man to help him find Tunney because he could not see well. Dempsey wanted to shake his hand. What if this fight had been 15 rounds?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrpmv_zOa0k

Dempsey simply couldn't pick another State. Wills' people were not much interested in 1922 in staging the fight anywhere except New York.

There was no point in Farley and Tammany investing time and money in making Wills a champion if the fight was to happen elsewhere. The whole damn push was to make money and garner Negro votes. What good would a fight in Reno or New Orleans going to do?

P.S. The fight was doable in New York once racist Maldoon was put in his place by Farley and Tammany. The venue wasn't the problem it was Kearns who didn't want any fight where Rickard could be involved.