If Dempsey Had Defended Against Wills,Godfrey & Norfolk?

[Marchegiano]

Marg are you back? Couldn't PM you looks like you made this post recently. Maybe it is wishful thinking...

I tried hanging out and speaking with a different voice. It went well, but it was so boring I'll not be doing that again.

As far as how long I'll be here, that depends on when War Room notices and cries to Poppa but **** it. I'll just sign up again and then reveal who I am again. It's not hard to get a fresh account.

[Willie Pep 229]

The Dempsey-Wills fight should have occurred summer 1922. It would have been a bawl of the century fight.

Because of 20-20 hindsight we now know that a Dempsey-Wills fight in 1926 wouldn't have been the fight we would want or hold in much regard today. Wills had slid considerably more than Dempsey by 1926.

Had Dempsey won in '26 we would still be hearing today that he 'ducked' Wills when he should have fought him in 1922.

Much like the anti-Mayweather posters accuse TUE with regard to the Pacquiao fight.

Dempsey beating Wills in '26 wouldn't have meant much today.

Of course had Wills beat Dempsey in '26, Dempsey people would be making a similar counter argument.

With hindsight in view the 1926 fight wouldn't have changed either legacy much. The fight should have happened in 1922. That's the fight we lost.

Regarding the other Black 'contenders' discussion of 'ducks' is a useless conversation.

If a mixed fight for the HW Championship was to occur it would have been Wills. That didn't happen (See the other two to three thousand posts on this forum for details as to why.)

But it didn't happen, so discussion about Godfrey or Norfolk is pointless. One might as well just post all the known 'colored' HWs and say Dempsey ducked them too. Silly!

[EDIT] In case I wasn't clear I am speaking of the possible 1926 fight with hindsight.

Had the fight occurred in 1926 it would have been mega. A Hundred thousand in the seats and a million dollar plus gate for sure.

It's just that we now know better where Wills was at.

[Dr. Z]

If Dempsey Had Defended Against Wills,Godfrey & Norfolk?

I wonder if the initial author of this thread believes his own BS.

Norfolk by the way won matches at heavyweight where he was over the 175 pound limit while Dempsey was champion.. You can figure out who he beat here.

https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/11318

Of course Norfolk deserves a title shot. He beat some guys who defeated Dempsey one of his title opponents. And contender named Greb.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/oldtimer/norfolk.html

Now be sure to click the link if his HOF bio. It mentions he fought heavyweights. Who are you to say different?



Born William Ward on July 10, 1893 in Belmont, VA. Norfolk began fighting in battle royals in Baltimore, MD. He moved to Panama as a youngster and reportedly adopted the moniker “Kid Norfolk” after the street he was born on.

He turned pro in 1914 while working construction on the Panama Canal. Although handicapped by his size (5'8” and 170 pounds), he competed against full-fledged heavyweights and in 1916 the aggressive boxing Norfolk won the vacant Panamanian heavyweight title. In the spring of 1917 he signed with manager Leo P. Flynn who brought him to New York where he met Gunboat Smith (ND 10, ND 10) among others. Norfolk registered an impressive 10 round victory over Billy Miske in Boston on October 16, 1917. Another win over Miske two years later, coupled with wins over John Lester Johnson and Jack Blackburn led to a 1921 showdown with Harry Greb. Norfolk dropped the “Human Windmill” in the first round and captured the 10 round newspaper decision. In 1922 and 1923 Norfolk racked up an impressive string of victories over Tut Jackson, Jamaica Kid, Tiger Flowers and Battling Siki. He defeated Greb in a 1924 rematch via 6th round disqualification.

Norfolk would continue to box until 1926 when he retired with an 80-16-2 (31 KOs) record. Although he never challenged for a world title, Norfolk is regarded as one of the standout light heavyweights of his era. He died in 1953.

[travestyny]

The Dempsey-Wills fight should have occurred summer 1922. It would have been a bawl of the century fight.

Because of 20-20 hindsight we now know that a Dempsey-Wills fight in 1926 wouldn't have been the fight we would want or hold in much regard today. Wills had slid considerably more than Dempsey by 1926.

Had Dempsey won in '26 we would still be hearing today that he 'ducked' Wills when he should have fought him in 1922.

Much like the anti-Mayweather posters accuse TUE with regard to the Pacquiao fight.

Dempsey beating Wills in '26 wouldn't have meant much today.

Of course had Wills beat Dempsey in '26, Dempsey people would be making a similar counter argument.

With hindsight in view the 1926 fight wouldn't have changed either legacy much. The fight should have happened in 1922. That's the fight we lost.

Regarding the other Black 'contenders' discussion of 'ducks' is a useless conversation.

If a mixed fight for the HW Championship was to occur it would have been Wills. That didn't happen (See the other two to three thousand posts on this forum for details as to why.)

But it didn't happen, so discussion about Godfrey or Norfolk is pointless. One might as well just post all the known 'colored' HWs and say Dempsey ducked them too. Silly!

[EDIT] In case I wasn't clear I am speaking of the possible 1926 fight with hindsight.

Had the fight occurred in 1926 it would have been mega. A Hundred thousand in the seats and a million dollar plus gate for sure.

It's just that we now know better where Wills was at.

They both lost in '26. Dempsey didn't look good either. He then beat Sharkey in a fight some thought he was on his way to losing, but he beat him with a low blow. I don't think you can say how they would look against each other at that point with any certainty. I mean that goes without saying because it's a fantasy fight at this point, but I think you get the point I'm trying to make. Wills was older than Dempsey and maybe more worn. Could he have put together a great showing against the man who ducked him for multiple, multiple years for the title? Maybe.....

But it's all opinion. You are certainly entitled to yours. I rarely give my opinion on who takes fantasy fights because there are way too many variables. Every time we are asked to choose a winner in these fantasy fights, Fat Andy and Joshua pop into my head

[GhostofDempsey]

Oh, this is more semantics than disagreement actually.

I skimmed a list of names and assumed we were talking about the guys who challenged not necessarily the guys we feel would have been a challenge. At this point in the thread that's pretty much all y'all're debating. So, I am just going to relax and read, may chime in again at some point but at this very moment I feel sheepish for misunderstanding, skimming, and not really getting the jist before I went typing.



Just for the sake of conclusions, as I recall it, Panama was brought into Dempsey's camp for a Greb stand-in and ended up looking the better of the two. He then attempted to parlay the praise he had gotten into a match with Jack, and so is a challenger. That's the sort of challenger I meant when I said "many, many". Just one of many black guys who wanted a fight with dempsey.

Fairly certain I got the story from Sundowners and it's definitely been a while so I might have messed it up but I am super confident Panama did want a shot.


Again, not exactly what y'all're talking about. At least, not anymore.


I should have made my post a quote under Willow's:



In that list, I feel, Panama deserves a shout too.

Panama was a welter/middle bright in to spar with Dempsey for the Miske fight. He was there to develop Dempsey’s speed. At no time in their sparring dime ever get the best of Dempsey.

Here is a quote from Gans himself regarding Dempsey.

EC4DED71-C243-4085-8708-18024745FB03.jpg

[Marchegiano]

Panama was a welter/middle bright in to spar with Dempsey for the Miske fight. He was there to develop Dempsey’s speed. At no time in their sparring dime ever get the best of Dempsey.

Here is a quote from Gans himself regarding Dempsey.

Took out the pic for space. See Dempsey's post for the pic.

Sweet anecdote. Not trying to be a jerk when I ask this, it's just not connecting on my own. Why did you post this? I appreciated it but don't see the relevance.

[GhostofDempsey]

Sweet anecdote. Not trying to be a jerk when I ask this, it's just not connecting on my own. Why did you post this? I appreciated it but don't see the relevance.

It was relevant to the discussion. You mentioned Panama Gans and “looking the better of the two” in sparring. I recently read this passage and it came to mind as you mentioned Gans.

[billeau2]

I tried hanging out and speaking with a different voice. It went well, but it was so boring I'll not be doing that again.

As far as how long I'll be here, that depends on when War Room notices and cries to Poppa but **** it. I'll just sign up again and then reveal who I am again. It's not hard to get a fresh account.

I cannot PM you. But keep me in the loop.

[Ivich]

If Dempsey Had Defended Against Wills,Godfrey & Norfolk?

I wonder if the initial author of this thread believes his own BS.

Norfolk by the way won matches at heavyweight where he was over the 175 pound limit while Dempsey was champion.. You can figure out who he beat here.

https://boxrec.com/en/box-pro/11318

Of course Norfolk deserves a title shot. He beat some guys who defeated Dempsey one of his title opponents. And contender named Greb.

http://www.ibhof.com/pages/about/inductees/oldtimer/norfolk.html

Now be sure to click the link if his HOF bio. It mentions he fought heavyweights. Who are you to say different?



Born William Ward on July 10, 1893 in Belmont, VA. Norfolk began fighting in battle royals in Baltimore, MD. He moved to Panama as a youngster and reportedly adopted the moniker “Kid Norfolk” after the street he was born on.

He turned pro in 1914 while working construction on the Panama Canal. Although handicapped by his size (5'8” and 170 pounds), he competed against full-fledged heavyweights and in 1916 the aggressive boxing Norfolk won the vacant Panamanian heavyweight title. In the spring of 1917 he signed with manager Leo P. Flynn who brought him to New York where he met Gunboat Smith (ND 10, ND 10) among others. Norfolk registered an impressive 10 round victory over Billy Miske in Boston on October 16, 1917. Another win over Miske two years later, coupled with wins over John Lester Johnson and Jack Blackburn led to a 1921 showdown with Harry Greb. Norfolk dropped the “Human Windmill” in the first round and captured the 10 round newspaper decision. In 1922 and 1923 Norfolk racked up an impressive string of victories over Tut Jackson, Jamaica Kid, Tiger Flowers and Battling Siki. He defeated Greb in a 1924 rematch via 6th round disqualification.

Norfolk would continue to box until 1926 when he retired with an 80-16-2 (31 KOs) record. Although he never challenged for a world title, Norfolk is regarded as one of the standout light heavyweights of his era. He died in 1953.

Yes he fought heavyweights,what he didn't do is beat any heavyweights of note during Dempsey's time as champ,and that I have conclusively proven!
Norfolk was a simply filthily dirty fighter,in their 2nd fight he butted Greb out through the ropes and repeatedly hit him low.he should have been slung out.
The boxing commission suspended both Greb and Norfolk six months for fighting after the bell. The Boston Globe reported that "for the first five rounds, Greb was outclassed." However, according to the Pittsburgh Post, Norfolk charged into Greb, head down, and butted him through the ropes and into the press section in round two. The referee should have disqualified Norfolk, but the fight continued. Norfolk intentionally punched Greb in the groin several times until Harry retaliated, which caused him to be disqualified. The crowd put up a terrific protest and the referee had to flee the ring. The "last two rounds were fought along the foulest possible lines."

In their 1st fight the 161lbs Greb gave him17 1/2 lbs and beat him
Norfolk, who was 17 1/2 pounds heavier than Greb, won four of the first five rounds, and scored a flash knockdown in round three, not hurting Greb. Greb won every one of the last five rounds. Greb "smothered him with a two-fisted attack, " as Norfolk tired, and the Kid was "all at sea." Referee Yock Henniger said the next day that he would have given it to Greb if a decision was allowed. Norfolk suffered a badly cut eye. Apparently Greb held Norfolk in too much respect until he realized that the Kid could not hurt him. (Reports from the Pittsburgh Post.) It is sometimes said that Norfolk thumbed Greb in this fight, leading to his loss of sight in one eye. However, there is nothing in the account from the Post to indicate anything of that sort. According to Bill Paxton in The Fearless Harry Greb, a punch delivered by Norfolk in this fight may have initiated a retinal detachment which eventually caused Greb to lose his sight in the right eye. This idea is based on the fact that Greb reportedly started experiencing some unusual visual effects after this fight.Greb had a battle with Chuck Wiggins the following week, whereas Norfolk had to take several months off.

Being in the HOF doesnt mean you should deserve a title shot with Jack Dempsey, Wills took Norfolk out in2 rds during Dempsey reign.
When they came out of their corners in the second, Norfolk went into a clinch and a moment later fell backward to the floor, taking the full count. No one at the ringside saw the blow that felled him.

After the count, he walked to his corner and did not seem hurt. Wills said the blow was a short inside right to the jaw. Referee Kid McPartland told newspaper men that he saw the blow delivered and that it did not travel more than six inches. The crowd expressed its disapproval of the manner in which the match was terminated. It did not appear to them that Norfolk had been hit.

However, to prove that he really went down under a powerful punch, Norfolk displayed a deep cut in his mouth caused by the blow. In the first round, Norfolk took the aggressive and swung a left to Wills' head, Wills returned a straight right to the chin and followed Norfolk into a corner, landing a left to the jaw.

They sparred for an opening. Wills landed a light left to the body, and Norfolk fell heavily to the floor when he missed a long right swing to the body. Wills landed a left jab at the bell. In the second, they met in a clinch, and after a short interchange, Norfolk fell away from Wills, landing heavily on his shoulders after twenty-six seconds of fighting. Wills said he had floored Norfolk with a short left to the body and an inside short right to the jaw."

Gibbons stopped him in 6.
image.png

In his next fight Norfolk was ko'd in the 1st round by third rater Bob Lawson!

1921-05-30	185	172		Lee Anderson	20 9 12		Arizona A.C., Phoenix	L-TKO	9/10		event bout score wiki
Colored Heavyweight Title Norfolk was unable to finish the ninth round and returned to his corner. The Tuscon Daily Citizen reported Anderson gave Norfolk "a trouncing". Norfolk floored three times in the third round.

Anderson was a third rater 20-9-12 he beat Norfolk several times during Dempsey's reign.
Yes Norfolk won the Panamanian heavyweight title,it was vacant and the man he beat for it was Dempsey's sparring partner Bill Tate whose record was 10-12-1 Whoop De Doo!
This by the way was 4 years BEFORE Dempsey won the title!

FOR THE LAST TIME. WTF DID NORFOLK DO DURING DEMPSEY'S CHAMPIONSHIP YEARS TO JUSTIFY A TITLE SHOT?

[Ivich]

Sweet anecdote. Not trying to be a jerk when I ask this, it's just not connecting on my own. Why did you post this? I appreciated it but don't see the relevance.

The relevance I'd say is it shows Gans wasn't keen to meet Dempsey in a reaL FIGHT!
I don't see anything that suggests Gans got the better of Dempsey either.

Dempsey would crucify any welterweight who "got clever with him".