a case for Joe Louis beating Muhammad Ali prime for prime

[billeau2]

The same Clay/Ali who beat Liston the first time would fight tactically identically against Louis, I believe. Their speed difference would be quite disparate and noticeable, rather than small and debatable, especially in foot speed. Joe has a chance because ATGs do land punches on anyone But I think his face is going to be too busy taking punches. Joe was heavy legged, which contributed apparently to his power but not his foot speed.

It is important to realize that Liston was a much different fighter than Louis. Its hard to fathom that considering both men were among the best finishers ever, and both men had power to spare, were very different in their approacjh. Liston, at his best, probably not the version that fought Ali, used reach, a two step and a pole ax of a jab to set up his opponents. Louis cut the ring, used angles, and was a much better counter puncher than Liston imo. But Liston was even a better finisher than Louis and could throw his shots, grounded, without needing to set, because of his coordination with the two step and his attacks.

Louis was deliberate... He was fighting at a time where big fights often went 15 rounds which gave him plenty of time to land and he managed to keep winning using those tactics. Even the Billy Conn fight, which people often cite as a foible regarding Louis' speed, Louis managed to catch Billy when it counted. It will always be debatable as to whether the end of that fight was a demonstration of how precise Louis was, or a lucky break for Louis. Lol, Shannon Briggs once fought an Eastern European fighter who won round after round against him... Only to be knocked out cold in the closing seconds of the very last round! Either Briggs was a genius or very lucky.

One way to look at louis is using the old addage: "If it aint broke, don't fix it. Louis never really had to change tactics. Yet, this also made him a one gear fighter, that is until he had his man hurt. Regarding Ali, Louis approach was actually by the book: Use angles and cut the ring off. If Ali went straight back against Joe, it could well end like it did when Frazier caught Ali with that left hook. On the other hand, Ali could find you with that jab at all times and had sneaky combinations only he could work with. it would be interesting to say the least.

[billeau2]

nope I disagree, now that footage of prime Louis is upscaled with Ai, you can see he⠀™s got very fast explosive punches. I said this in the OP.

the old footage of Louis he always looked flat footed and slower because there just wasnâà‚€Â™ t enough frames to display how he actually moved. We can also now see his subtle cleverness and ability to roll punches and bait his oponents

Ali is still quicker than him, but preposterous isnâà‚€Â™t the word.

hd upscaled prime Louis

Ali vs Doug Jones, Jones was quick but not as quick as Ali, but his better fundamentals allowed him to hit Ali a lot

if you notice, nobody ever seemed capable of effectively jabbing Louis because his style negates the jab, much like Norton

Different types of quickness all come out of speed. The speed of a Louis combination, versus the speed of Ali are only comparable in so many ways. Ali had this relaxed movement style that allowed him to take his natural qualities and quickly catch his opponents. Louis had explosive speed... Like a rubber band that suddenly contracts. A lot of Ali's speed was from setting the body in motion and flowing into the punch. His hands were heavy enough to deliver the shot, and the speed of the blow made it's impact. Throwing like this allowed Ali to hit you while he went backwards and it also allowed him to roll his shoulders right into follow up blows. Witness the "phantom punch" against Liston.

With Joe it was untelegraphed, in a manner similar to Dempsey, and forcefully driving the shoulder just past the chin. This allowed Louis the balance to follow up instantly. But Louis hit through you, unlike Ali and every punch was an explosion.

[them_apples]

This. It's absolutely ridiculous.

did you watch the HQ videos I posted?

[them_apples]

Louis's footwork was fine for his day. It works, where most opponents barely move but wait for his punch. Louis could not survive against today's best unless Blackburn added some ideas that are not present in his leg work. I am not saying he has no decent leg work. Fine for his day, paltry today.

man in all respect but you are totally wrong. his footwork was very VERY well schooled. He cut the ring off vs everyone. I said before, Foreman did the same thing to Ali. Foreman was said to be flat footed as well. flashy doesn't mean bad, his was educated. And blackburn literally knew everything about boxing.

Louis uses an old footwork strat of pivoting on the back foot so he was always facing the opponent from the angle he wanted, and take one step in the direction you want to go. This is how they cut the ring off. Ali when he jokingly sparred with Roy Jones, showed Jones how it worked. And Jones said "there isn't really anything to hit, just based on his stance"

boxers today have absolutely terrible footwork, stances so wide they lose balance and can't throw proper punches. its a joke

[them_apples]

Different types of quickness all come out of speed. The speed of a Louis combination, versus the speed of Ali are only comparable in so many ways. Ali had this relaxed movement style that allowed him to take his natural qualities and quickly catch his opponents. Louis had explosive speed... Like a rubber band that suddenly contracts. A lot of Ali's speed was from setting the body in motion and flowing into the punch. His hands were heavy enough to deliver the shot, and the speed of the blow made it's impact. Throwing like this allowed Ali to hit you while he went backwards and it also allowed him to roll his shoulders right into follow up blows. Witness the "phantom punch" against Liston.

With Joe it was untelegraphed, in a manner similar to Dempsey, and forcefully driving the shoulder just past the chin. This allowed Louis the balance to follow up instantly. But Louis hit through you, unlike Ali and every punch was an explosion.

and also keep in mind I still see Ali as the faster fighter

[cyril layman]

- - Ali knocked down by fringe Sonny Banks, knocked out by Sir 'enery, beat up by little Doug Jones, TKOed by Liston 1, DQed by a legit ref in Liston 2, and that just for starters.

Thanks for a comparison reference to Joe for whom MLK and Nelson Mandela molded their personalities and other personal attributes after...

Did Ali not beat all these men you mention.Tkoed by Liston I thought Ali stopped Liston in their first match.The first 3 fighters Ali came in under 200 pounds & all 3 were very early in his career.Ali fought the 2 hardest HW punchers in boxing History & ( Foreman 8th rd TKO.Shavers decision.) beat them both.He also did it in his early-mid 30's when he was more a flat footed fighter than when he fought back in his 20's & was more of a mover & rarely got hit.You can say all you want about him but there will never be another great HW like Ali.

[QueensburyRules]

Did Ali not beat all these men you mention.Tkoed by Liston I thought Ali stopped Liston in their first match.The first 3 fighters Ali came in under 200 pounds & all 3 were very early in his career.Ali fought the 2 hardest HW punchers in boxing History & ( Foreman 8th rd TKO.Shavers decision.) beat them both.He also did it in his early-mid 30's when he was more a flat footed fighter than when he fought back in his 20's & was more of a mover & rarely got hit.You can say all you want about him but there will never be another great HW like Ali.

- - Clay don't beat them with with competent refereeing and officiating, that much is obvious.

Joe record much more prolific than Ali with wins and KOs combined with less losses, and even those losses were vs HOFers.

Fine if you want to boost Ali, but guaranteed Joe dominated in a fashion Ali was unable to come close to.,

[cyril layman]

- - Clay don't beat them with with competent refereeing and officiating, that much is obvious.

Joe record much more prolific than Ali with wins and KOs combined with less losses, and even those losses were vs HOFers.

Fine if you want to boost Ali, but guaranteed Joe dominated in a fashion Ali was unable to come close to.,

The 1970's is considered the toughest era in HW boxing history & Ali in his 30's by then fought & beat them all.Foreman-Frazier-Norton-Liston-Shavers-spinks.These me are HOF.Give me Louis resume please.

[cyril layman]

- - Clay don't beat them with with competent refereeing and officiating, that much is obvious.

Joe record much more prolific than Ali with wins and KOs combined with less losses, and even those losses were vs HOFers.

Fine if you want to boost Ali, but guaranteed Joe dominated in a fashion Ali was unable to come close to.,

Give me those names of all the great HW Louis beat.Ali beat 7 HOF again give me the names of all the HOF Louis beat.I have Louis 2nd greatest HW all time but Ali deserves the top spot hands down.Had they fought each other both in their prime Ali scores 12-13th round TKO.I am not trying to put Louis down like i said he was a great HW but Ali was just a level above him.

[them_apples]

Give me those names of all the great HW Louis beat.Ali beat 7 HOF again give me the names of all the HOF Louis beat.I have Louis 2nd greatest HW all time but Ali deserves the top spot hands down.Had they fought each other both in their prime Ali scores 12-13th round TKO.I am not trying to put Louis down like i said he was a great HW but Ali was just a level above him.

but also consider that both of them in their biggest events always showed up. A testament to the pride they had as champions. When the stakes were high they both performed top tier. We can’t even look at fights like Ali vs Cooper or Louis vs Conn as sure fire examples because both of those fights they probably underestimated their oponents.

in fight 1 Louis loses to schmeling, in fight 2 Louis sparks him in 1.

so consider both of them would be gunning for the top spot.

I personally think Louis style negates a jab very well, and Ali worked off his jab. Norton was able to give Ali fits by getting rid if his jab.

my 2 cents


in one scenario, I see Ali coming out and gliding around wipping fast shots at Louis, who like liston would adjust his defense to nullify them.

Louis being trained by blackburn, his stance he keeps his right hand in front of his face, and his punches come down the center. This stance, he would catch the opponents jab and fire his own back at the same time. Negating the jab. He would dip down and use feints to make it more difficult to predict. This is why Louis never got out jabbed, and Norton as well.

as other pointed out Ali lets his shots off smooth which are harder to see coming, Louis has that explosive speed and relied on his poker body complex to hide what he threw. I think early on we would see Ali win more rounds than lose based on volume - but as the fight goes on Louis can start to time him and land his sharp shots on Alis leaky defense at times. Alis foot speed would probably let him grab the first few rounds as well. Louis would stalk him and be wasting no energy, theres a good chance he comes on strong late. He's certainly fast enough to catch Ali because others did so as well with similar speed. Lastly, the altercations Louis had with Ali - to me at least describe Louis as not intimidated by Alis higher IQ for a boxer. Ali would get into tue heads of simpler uneducated boxers. In one phone call, Ali asked Foreman to beat Norton again for him, because Norton wasn’t scared of him (partly because they partied together).