Vitali Klitschko, the last great heavyweight

[JAB5239]

Wlad fought many fights ( 60 + ) for a longer period of time, Vitali took a 4 year beak during his prime year to focus on politics! That has something to due with Wald fighting more contenders. You ignore the fact that Louis used the color line big time on fighting 2 African Americans in his 26 title fights. Disgraceful! Louis also lost to three men under 200 pounds and would hade lost more if the judging was fair. I noticed you ignore the facts, and have issues counting right for certain fighters. Judge them on ring ring records Vs raked opponents I say to take all the basis away form the equation. Here Vitali is a proven 8-2, and that winning % is excellent. Now Louis fought the most contenders, but he also used the color line did not fight ANY Eastern Europeans. Just imagine if Ali acted the same way, his resume would be not be special. If Vitali fought Louis competition which ring magazine says is the weakest era of heavyweight boxing , all of those sub 200 pounders you tell me who many wins he would have. As it stands Vitali fought two cruiser former weights champions. They last less the three full rounds!

Take away Wlads top 10 wins while Vits wasn't active and he still has a lot more.

Who were these ranked African Americans and where did they rank compare to who Louis fought instead?

Vits fought one top 10 eastern european his whole career and missed 11. What's funny is the guy he did fight was a former lightheavyweight that lost to Chad Dawson. Vits drew the line against fighting not only eastern europeans, but the best fighters in general. Both times he did, he came up short.

It doesn't matter what you "think" Vits would do in another era. Fighters are judged by what they did in their own time.

Look what Louis did to the super heavyweights of his day. Does that automatically mean he does the same to every big man since?

[crold1]

You did you did not check all the issues before via PM, and no I'm not being an @ss. If you have all the issues as claimed go ahead and look and take a photo of the rankings of all the fighters on the page with the dates below, from the months of 3-2011 when they were on the magazine stands and before. This is easy to do with camera phones. Keep in mind that the ring magazine runs about three months behind. This has nothing to do with the on line issues or their rankings, it is listed in black and white.

If you want to prove yourself right go ahead and do this! I'll be a man and admit as mistake, if will you. You made an error, its is no big deal. I listed two sources that you can read. Are they wrong? Stop hiding behind the on-line ranking which Soils was ranked at the time of the fight, and take the photo form the magazine that was on the new stand before fight and during it, two pictiures and prove it why don't you? Here is you chance to make me say I was mistaken. If you don't do this and have all RING Magazine issues ( I take our word ) we will both know why. Ie You are embarrassed for making tiny error. Like I said It's not big deal.

Despite calling me an arrogant @ss I view you pragmatically and like you.

I didn't call you arrogant. I called you belligerent. As to these details: "take the photo form the magazine that was on the new stand before fight and during it..." I provided this months ago and then you had more questions...willfull refusal to recognize the difference between cover and rankings dates etc. so I gave up:

Yes, you could all be wrong strictly based on what was in the print issues. I can't figure out how to get the pictures to upload so I'll type it out:

April cover date, Rankings for period ended Jan 23, 2011, page 18:

Champ: Wlad
1. Vitali (record listed at 41-2, 38 KO)
2. Haye
3. Povetkin
4. Adamek
5. Chagaev
6. Chambers
7. Boytsov
8. Valuev
9. Dimitrenko
10. Arreola

May Cover Date, rankings as of Feb 20, 2011, page 18:

Champ: Wlad
1. Vitali (record listed at 41-2, 38 KO)
2. Haye
3. Povetkin
4. Adamek
5. Chagaev
6. Chambers
7. Boytsov
8. Valuev
9. Dimitrenko
10. Arreola

June Cover Date, rankings as of March 20, 2011, page 18:

Champ: Wlad
1. Vitali (record listed updated to 42-2, 39 KO)
2. Haye
3. Povetkin
4. Adamek
5. Chagaev
6. Chambers
7. Boytsov
8. Dimitrenko
9. Arreola
10. Pulev

Page 17, ratings analysis notes Valuev exited due to inactivity. If Solis moved in online for that, it is conceivable he was 10 for a minute between issues strictly online but there is no evidence of it in the magazine and no mention of Solis entering and exiting. The closest date I could find in wayback was 2/26: https://web.archive.org/web/20110221...49-heavyweight

No Solis.

if there was a brief change prior to the fight, it wasn’t recorded by then. That wouldn't be an error in my work because the work was based solely on print issues. The fight result is on page 98.

Does that suffice?

Solis was ranked going in...but it only appeared online for a week or two between the issues with the print rankings for through Feb 20 and through March 20. It never made print. I still can't figure out how to post photos but I emailed the snaps to Battling Nelson (including two additional issues taking the rankings back to Nov 2010. Solis is in ZERO. Hope Bat can post. If not, you can carry on with him when he confirms you're wrong.

We're done now.

[JAB5239]

Minus one for Vits. Still more than 10 heavyweights more Ring ranked top 10 wins.

[crold1]

You bet lost , say you ,ten find more wins other fighter
Fourteen fighters more wins have than seven.
Schmeling 8
Baer 9
Sharkey 10
Frazier 8
Walcott 10
Charles 13
Ali 25
Lewis 12
Holmes 12
Tyson 10
Patterson 9
Holyfield 12
Liston 8
Louis 26

Total 14
You bet have lost,goal posts three times by you moved .
Know everyone , honored bet you did not.so now all is good .
You Internet Pariah.Me like this very much!

Saw this thumbing through...Patterson had more than that at heavyweight, at least according to Ring (https://www.ringtv.com/634689-to-be-...ankings-50-41/). Number are off for others as well but Patterson's depth of resume can be underrated. The study captured at least 12 wins Patterson had over Ring-rated heavyweights (the first Slade win was while Patterson was still ranked at light heavyweight. Below is the result, the ranking of the opponent, the division they were ranked in, and the cover date where the ranking can be found for the issue preceding the fight.


Floyd Patterson

Career Record: 55-8-1 (40 KOs, 5 KOBY)
First Ring Ranking: #10 Light Heavyweight (August 1953)
Last Ring Ranking: #8 Heavyweight (August 1973)
Record vs. Ring-rated Opponents: 16-8-1 (12 KOs, 5 KOBY)

Ring Magazine Championships: Heavyweight (1956-59, 60-62)

Floyd Patterson was The Ring’s 1956 and 1960 Fighter of the Year.

The 1952 Olympic gold medalist at middleweight, Patterson was a pro less than a year when he entered the top ten for the first time at light heavyweight. A loss to Joey Maxim in 1954 was controversial in its time and didn’t halt Patterson’s momentum. Patterson rose to number one contender at light heavyweight in the September 1955 issue and remained until June 1956, entering the heavyweight rankings the following issue on the eve of his first fight with Tommy Jackson. Patterson succeeded the retired Rocky Marciano as champion in his next fight with a knockout of Archie Moore.

Patterson’s vulnerability and lack of size at heavyweight was offset by his courage and perseverance. He avenged a loss to Johansson to become the first man to regain the title, winning their series 2-1, and rebounded from staggering losses to Sonny Liston and Ali to continue as a top ten contender for years afterwards. After being out of the ring for two years between 1968 and 1970, Patterson returned to post a nine fight win streak, climbing as high as third in the rankings for a few months in 1972, before retiring after a second loss to Ali.

Missing Quality: Yvon Durelle entered the rankings in 1957 and went on to give champion Archie Moore a legendary scare. Patterson won a decision over Durelle in 1954. Tommy Harrison slipped out of the heavyweight top ten just a few months before Patterson stopped him in one the same year. In rebounding from his losses to Liston, Patterson beat Charlie Powell between victories over Eddie Machen and George Chuvalo. Powell had been ranked for much of 1959 but was long out of the top ten by then.

Scoring Results:

Joey Maxim L 8 – (2) – 175 – 07/54
Jimmy Slade UD 8 – (6+) – Hvy – 01/55
Willie Troy RTD 5 – (6-) – 160 – 02/55
Dave Whitlock KO 3 – (10) – 175 – 11/55
Jimmy Slade TKO 7 (5+) – Hvy – 01/56
Tommy Jackson SD 12 – (2) – Hvy – 07/56
Archie Moore KO 5* – (1) – Hvy – 01/57
Tommy Jackson TKO 10 – (1) – Hvy – 09/57
Roy Harris RTD 12 – (5) – Hvy – 09/58
Brian London KO 11 – (8) – Hvy – 06/59
Ingemar Johansson TKO by 3* – (1) – Hvy – 07/59
Ingemar Johansson KO 5* – (C) – Hvy – 07/60
Ingemar Johansson KO 6 – (2) – Hvy – 04/61
Tom McNeeley KO 4 – (9) – Hvy – 01/62
Sonny Liston KO by 1* – (1) – Hvy – 10/62
Sonny Liston KO by 1* – (C) – Hvy – 08/63
Eddie Machen W 12 – (4) – Hvy – 08/64
George Chuvalo UD 12 – (4) – Hvy – 04/65
Muhammad Ali TKO by 12 – (C) – Hvy – 01/66
Henry Cooper KO 4 – (8) – Hvy – 11/66
Jerry Quarry D 10 – (UR) – Hvy – 07/67
Jerry Quarry L 12 – (8) – Hvy – 12/67
Jimmy Ellis L 15 – (2) – Hvy – 11/68
Oscar Bonavena UD 10 – (4) – Hvy – 04/72
Muhammad Ali RTD by 7 – (1) – Hvy – 11/72

[Ivich]

Saw this thumbing through...Patterson had more than that at heavyweight, at least according to Ring (https://www.ringtv.com/634689-to-be-...ankings-50-41/). Number are off for others as well but Patterson's depth of resume can be underrated. The study captured at least 12 wins Patterson had over Ring-rated heavyweights (the first Slade win was while Patterson was still ranked at light heavyweight. Below is the result, the ranking of the opponent, the division they were ranked in, and the cover date where the ranking can be found for the issue preceding the fight.


Floyd Patterson

Career Record: 55-8-1 (40 KOs, 5 KOBY)
First Ring Ranking: #10 Light Heavyweight (August 1953)
Last Ring Ranking: #8 Heavyweight (August 1973)
Record vs. Ring-rated Opponents: 16-8-1 (12 KOs, 5 KOBY)

Ring Magazine Championships: Heavyweight (1956-59, 60-62)

Floyd Patterson was The Ring’s 1956 and 1960 Fighter of the Year.

The 1952 Olympic gold medalist at middleweight, Patterson was a pro less than a year when he entered the top ten for the first time at light heavyweight. A loss to Joey Maxim in 1954 was controversial in its time and didn’t halt Patterson’s momentum. Patterson rose to number one contender at light heavyweight in the September 1955 issue and remained until June 1956, entering the heavyweight rankings the following issue on the eve of his first fight with Tommy Jackson. Patterson succeeded the retired Rocky Marciano as champion in his next fight with a knockout of Archie Moore.

Patterson’s vulnerability and lack of size at heavyweight was offset by his courage and perseverance. He avenged a loss to Johansson to become the first man to regain the title, winning their series 2-1, and rebounded from staggering losses to Sonny Liston and Ali to continue as a top ten contender for years afterwards. After being out of the ring for two years between 1968 and 1970, Patterson returned to post a nine fight win streak, climbing as high as third in the rankings for a few months in 1972, before retiring after a second loss to Ali.

Missing Quality: Yvon Durelle entered the rankings in 1957 and went on to give champion Archie Moore a legendary scare. Patterson won a decision over Durelle in 1954. Tommy Harrison slipped out of the heavyweight top ten just a few months before Patterson stopped him in one the same year. In rebounding from his losses to Liston, Patterson beat Charlie Powell between victories over Eddie Machen and George Chuvalo. Powell had been ranked for much of 1959 but was long out of the top ten by then.

Scoring Results:

Joey Maxim L 8 – (2) – 175 – 07/54
Jimmy Slade UD 8 – (6+) – Hvy – 01/55
Willie Troy RTD 5 – (6-) – 160 – 02/55
Dave Whitlock KO 3 – (10) – 175 – 11/55
Jimmy Slade TKO 7 (5+) – Hvy – 01/56
Tommy Jackson SD 12 – (2) – Hvy – 07/56
Archie Moore KO 5* – (1) – Hvy – 01/57
Tommy Jackson TKO 10 – (1) – Hvy – 09/57
Roy Harris RTD 12 – (5) – Hvy – 09/58
Brian London KO 11 – (8) – Hvy – 06/59
Ingemar Johansson TKO by 3* – (1) – Hvy – 07/59
Ingemar Johansson KO 5* – (C) – Hvy – 07/60
Ingemar Johansson KO 6 – (2) – Hvy – 04/61
Tom McNeeley KO 4 – (9) – Hvy – 01/62
Sonny Liston KO by 1* – (1) – Hvy – 10/62
Sonny Liston KO by 1* – (C) – Hvy – 08/63
Eddie Machen W 12 – (4) – Hvy – 08/64
George Chuvalo UD 12 – (4) – Hvy – 04/65
Muhammad Ali TKO by 12 – (C) – Hvy – 01/66
Henry Cooper KO 4 – (8) – Hvy – 11/66
Jerry Quarry D 10 – (UR) – Hvy – 07/67
Jerry Quarry L 12 – (8) – Hvy – 12/67
Jimmy Ellis L 15 – (2) – Hvy – 11/68
Oscar Bonavena UD 10 – (4) – Hvy – 04/72
Muhammad Ali RTD by 7 – (1) – Hvy – 11/72

Thanks so much Cliff ,your input is much appreciated!
Bottom line you were right,and Jab won the bet!

[Dr. Z]

I didn't call you arrogant. I called you belligerent. As to these details: "take the photo form the magazine that was on the new stand before fight and during it..." I provided this months ago and then you had more questions...willfull refusal to recognize the difference between cover and rankings dates etc. so I gave up:



Solis was ranked going in...but it only appeared online for a week or two between the issues with the print rankings for through Feb 20 and through March 20. It never made print. I still can't figure out how to post photos but I emailed the snaps to Battling Nelson (including two additional issues taking the rankings back to Nov 2010. Solis is in ZERO. Hope Bat can post. If not, you can carry on with him when he confirms you're wrong.

We're done now.

You didn't prove a photo / photos as I requested. You claim to have the issues yet you spend time typing, but it too much for you to check you magazines, snap a photo/photos with your phone and post them here?! Come on man, that's easy. You are in the media, correct? Soils was ranked in print and on line rankings / during the month the fight happened and before. You can't and won't do this simple request.

[Dr. Z]

Minus one for Vits. Still more than 10 heavyweights more Ring ranked top 10 wins.

Its more that 6, which you claimed.

[Ivich]

It more that 6, which you claimed.

When you realised your original challenge, to produce 10 men who had more wins over rated heavies than Vitali ,was a loser you changed the gaol posts,twice!
Here is your challenge in your own words

"You will struggle to name 10 fighters who beat more ring magazine rated guys at heavyweight. I challenge you to name them! Are you going to run away from that? Come one hater you have nearly 100 years of history."

You were provided with 15 names!

You are a de****able shameless piece of work. A BELLIGERENT ASS.
It's great to see you exposed in your true colours for all the forum to see!

[Dr. Z]

Jab didn't claim that at all,and you know it .When you realised your original challenge, to produce 10 men who had more wins over rated heavies than Vitali ,was a loser you changed the gaol posts,twice!

You are a de****able shameless piece of work. A BELLIGERENT ASS.
It's great to see you exposed in your true colours for all the forum to see!

LIAR, that was NOT the bet I offered. You have no shame.

[Ivich]

LAIR, that was NOT the bet I offered. You have no shame.

LAIR ? Four ****ing letters and you cannot even get them in the correct order! lol

Remember on Classic when you referred to Sam Langford as Sang Froid? That was a hoot lol!