Vitali Klitschko, the last great heavyweight

[Dr. Z]

very underrated, and levels above Wlad in every category - Vitali was likely the last great heavyweight champion.

if he was in his prime today, Wilder, Fury and Joshua would be journeymen.

Not speaking on behalf of his resume, which I think is also underrated - Mostly from just viewing his fights and style.

Vitali had so many qualities that made him great:

6 ft 8, Iron chin, good defense, not lifted or blown up (natural size) which means better stamina and agility. and most of all HEART.

You can argue all you want, but Vitali would toy with Wlad had they ever fought.

Now this man knows what he is talking about. Excellent video.

[JAB5239]

Its more that 6, which you claimed.

The bet was thai I couldn't find ten heavies with more Ring ranked wins. I can show you where it all started if need be, and at no time did I agree on a bet being over 6. Funny thing is, none of your argument make Vits resume any better. It's just not a good resume which makes his career overrated. That bothers you. Now go ahead and push the goal posts back again. You've already done it several other times in this thread which has been com.ented on by more than two posters.

[Bundana]

The bet was thai I couldn't find ten heavies with more Ring ranked wins. I can show you where it all started if need be, and at no time did I agree on a bet being over 6. Funny thing is, none of your argument make Vits resume any better. It's just not a good resume which makes his career overrated. That bothers you. Now go ahead and push the goal posts back again. You've already done it several other times in this thread which has been com.ented on by more than two posters.

This has been a very confusing thread... so yes, please, let's see where it all started.

[Marchegiano]

I had asked why you guys are so up Ring's butt but I botched the question and used the word obversion when I meant obsession so when I notifications on the responses I noticed and winced at my ******ity, edited it, and lost the responses in the pages and pages of this thread.

Let me retool and reboot.

I take issue with Ring for a few reasons:

1, It's only Dempsey era old and I personally think Jim Jeffries, Bob Fitzsimmons, and Double J are all high quality ATG fighters that I personally would rate over Vitali in terms of fighting high caliber fighters of their era.

2. I don't actually see Ring as less corrupt than the body ratings. I wouldn't say more either, it's just not what people say it is. Selling positions to promoters is selling positions to promoters.


That said, what really drags the K2 Bros.' resumes isn't ratings, imo, but rather how many times either one of them fought flash-in-the-pan "rated" fighters. In my opinion, their careers really show just how corrupt all ratings boards are. Plenty of the guys they fought were handed ratings for having done **** all and then dropped their ratings as soon as they lost.

That's why they don't really have resumes. You can say oh but look at the rated guys and pretend like you're measuring with a criteria that lacks bias but all of us were fans when those dudes were active and we all know it's really just propaganda disguised as rationalism. The brothers beat what one guy who stuck around a piece? Chisora and Povetkin? I guess Pov was at least a regular champion but Chisora...that guy did stick around and fans were constantly scratching their heads trying to figure out how TF Chisora's still a highly rated HW given he beats no one. Even if you have a lot of respect for Sasha and Dereck in terms of All Time that's some low caliber wins.


My 2 anyway.



Bundana is right, this novel of a thread is a bit confusing. Looks like there's plenty of semantics and goal post moving but I did not take the time to read everything so maybe that's more a product of skimming.

[JAB5239]

This has been a very confusing thread... so yes, please, let's see where it all started.

See posts #67, #78, #70 and #82 I believe. I don't know how to use the multi quote function anymore since they changed to setup here.

[JAB5239]

I had asked why you guys are so up Ring's butt but I botched the question and used the word obversion when I meant obsession so when I notifications on the responses I noticed and winced at my ******ity, edited it, and lost the responses in the pages and pages of this thread.

Let me retool and reboot.

I take issue with Ring for a few reasons:

1, It's only Dempsey era old and I personally think Jim Jeffries, Bob Fitzsimmons, and Double J are all high quality ATG fighters that I personally would rate over Vitali in terms of fighting high caliber fighters of their era.

2. I don't actually see Ring as less corrupt than the body ratings. I wouldn't say more either, it's just not what people say it is. Selling positions to promoters is selling positions to promoters.


That said, what really drags the K2 Bros.' resumes isn't ratings, imo, but rather how many times either one of them fought flash-in-the-pan "rated" fighters. In my opinion, their careers really show just how corrupt all ratings boards are. Plenty of the guys they fought were handed ratings for having done **** all and then dropped their ratings as soon as they lost.

That's why they don't really have resumes. You can say oh but look at the rated guys and pretend like you're measuring with a criteria that lacks bias but all of us were fans when those dudes were active and we all know it's really just propaganda disguised as rationalism. The brothers beat what one guy who stuck around a piece? Chisora and Povetkin? I guess Pov was at least a regular champion but Chisora...that guy did stick around and fans were constantly scratching their heads trying to figure out how TF Chisora's still a highly rated HW given he beats no one. Even if you have a lot of respect for Sasha and Dereck in terms of All Time that's some low caliber wins.


My 2 anyway.



Bundana is right, this novel of a thread is a bit confusing. Looks like there's plenty of semantics and goal post moving but I did not take the time to read everything so maybe that's more a product of skimming.

A lot to go over here but I'll touch on one thing before I had out to see some of my teammates fight today.

As far as corruption with ratings go.....I see The Ring far less corruptible because they're not charging people to fight for their belt....no sanctioning fees. Anytime you have to pay for something opens up the door to corruption. This of course is just my opinion, but one i would bet could be researched and backed up.

I to see fighters from earlier eras before the Ring as more accomplished and with better resumes. I've gotta hit the road, but if I find time I'll revisit this post to address what I agree about here, which is most of your post.

And don't worry about the skimming, we all do it unless we have a particular point and or argument we're making.

[Bundana]

See posts #67, #78, #70 and #82 I believe. I don't know how to use the multi quote function anymore since they changed to setup here.

Thanks. Ok, so I can see, that #78 was where a factual challenge was first made by Z:

"You will struggle to name 10 fighters who beat more ring magazine rated guys at heavyweight."

Can we agree, that this is different from who had more wins at HW?

[crold1]

A lot to go over here but I'll touch on one thing before I had out to see some of my teammates fight today.

As far as corruption with ratings go.....I see The Ring far less corruptible because they're not charging people to fight for their belt....no sanctioning fees. Anytime you have to pay for something opens up the door to corruption. This of course is just my opinion, but one i would bet could be researched and backed up.

I to see fighters from earlier eras before the Ring as more accomplished and with better resumes. I've gotta hit the road, but if I find time I'll revisit this post to address what I agree about here, which is most of your post.

And don't worry about the skimming, we all do it unless we have a particular point and or argument we're making.

There also isn’t a better metric to examine. Sanctioning bodies inherently don’t rank each others champs or often Today fighters aiming for the (insert) belt. Ring, TBRB etc are imperfect but they try to rank a whole class. Look at a few years ago…Josh Taylor’s mando was Khongsong. That was a joke. He wasn’t a number one. He didn’t belong top 20.

[Dr. Z]

Thanks. Ok, so I can see, that #78 was where a factual challenge was first made by Z:

"You will struggle to name 10 fighters who beat more ring magazine rated guys at heavyweight."

Can we agree, that this is different from who had more wins at HW?

The bet I offered was this to Jab:

Okay so let me get this correct you say Vitali only beat six ring magazine fighters? Fine we shall bet. I say make it a lets make it a ban bet because I can make you pay cash, nor do I desire you money. You are on. I will name the fights shortly provided the dates and rankings.

Rules I must provide the names or more than six ring magazine opponents beaten by Vitali Klitschko

.

[JAB5239]

The bet I offered was this to Jab:

.

Is that before you had pushed the goalposts back for the 3rd time. Stop acting like people can't read, it's all right in this thread. Either way, it's been thoroughly proven there are MANY more fighters with better resumes and plenty with more Ring 10 ten wins. You have this unusual need to have him seen as great, but his ledger of work just doesn't support that. You should take solace in k ow most us don't believe him great because of his resume do believe he would have been a force in any era.