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Originally posted by Clegg
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I like Vitali. Most of his fights were entertaining and he seems like a good guy. But his resume is very weak. There are different ways to rank great fighters, but one way I normally go with is 'who are their 3 best wins?'. The answer for Vitali would not be that impressive. Second thing I look at is how long was somebody the clear champion of a division. For Vitali the answer is 'never' so again not impressive. To be clear I'm not saying others have to follow my criteria, just explaining why I can't rate him highly.
I don't like to criticise a guy for quitting too much. Because boxing is a brutal sport. But it does affect your legacy. There is another thread in this section about Marciano being overrated. Well on paper you could come up with lots of reasons why Vitali was better than Marciano. But on the other hand, Marciano would never quit with an injured shoulder. He was the guy who got the most out of his qualities. We have seen guys with broken jaws, hands, shoulders still do all they can to win. Vitali was not willing to do that. That's part of why Marciano was the best of his era and Vitali was not.
What makes it worse is that so many fighters in history suffered a loss and just had to run it back. Whether they were chasing legacy or hurt ego or whatever. Vitali instead had his bro fight Byrd. That's so cynical. I feel the K bros lose some credit for handling each other's rematches. No other fighter in history needed to do that. Then even after that, Byrd rebuilds and at the time Lennox retires, Vitali and Byrd are ranked as the top 2 guys. But Vitali instead fought lower ranked guys. He could've become champ of the division and avenged a loss but chose a different path.
People also have this hard-luck view of Vitali that I don't support. For example he was unlucky to get badly cut vs Lennox in a fight he was doing well in. But really, cuts are part of boxing, and he was given time to try and get the stoppage and he couldn't do it. If anything he was fortunate to get an out of shape Lennox.
Reading through the thread, Dr Z (who has clearly lost the bet and is embarrassing himself twisting in the wind) wants to claim that Vitali beating Cubans proves greatness. Wants to claim beating heavy guys proves greatness. Well let's look at that in context. First of it's unfair to criticise past fighters for not facing Cubans if they had no way of doing it. They didn't avoid them. Very few ATGs have a win over a boxer of Arab descent. Does that mean Barrera deserves extra special credit for beating Hamed? Of course not.
If somebody clearly beat Rigo or Lara, they get credit for dealing with the Cuban style at the elite level. But Vitali beat Solis and Gomez. They were not great fighters so who cares where they came from? As for 'Vitali beat big men', Gomez was a cruiserweight who added fat to move up, then moved back down to cruiserweight afterwards. Solis made his name as an amateur at 200lbs, he was obese when he faced Vitali, so much so that his leg gave way in the first round! And this is being cited as evidence of Vitali's greatness, nobody who watched these fights would come away impressed.
If Vitali's injury losses don't count, why does injury his win over Solis count? Vitali probably holds the record for facing the most out of shape flabby guys in title fights. Remember the harpooned whale Kirk Johnson? We can dress that up as him beating 'big men' though I guess...
Then there is the suggestion that Vitali deserves credit for not drawing the colour line. When was the last time a HW champ was able to do that? The 1930s? Such a bizarre thing to credit a modern fighter for.
His fans go on and on about Lennox retiring as another case of bad luck for Vitali. But what about how Vitali was supposed to fight Rahman but instead he pulled out injured and retired? Then when Rahman is gone, Vitali comes back. Rahman would've been Vitali's best win. Seems like he benefitted from a timely retirement even more so than Lennox but his fans don't seem to mind that so much.
Lennox and Byrd are really the only 2 top level guys on his record, it's not a coincidence that those are the 2 to beat him. Vitali had a realistic chance to face and beat Lennox, Byrd and Rahman but instead beat none of those guys. He didn't rematch Byrd despite them being active at the same time for years afterwards, which is meaningful considering his fans think he deserves credit simply for wanting a rematch with Lennox.
I don't like to criticise a guy for quitting too much. Because boxing is a brutal sport. But it does affect your legacy. There is another thread in this section about Marciano being overrated. Well on paper you could come up with lots of reasons why Vitali was better than Marciano. But on the other hand, Marciano would never quit with an injured shoulder. He was the guy who got the most out of his qualities. We have seen guys with broken jaws, hands, shoulders still do all they can to win. Vitali was not willing to do that. That's part of why Marciano was the best of his era and Vitali was not.
What makes it worse is that so many fighters in history suffered a loss and just had to run it back. Whether they were chasing legacy or hurt ego or whatever. Vitali instead had his bro fight Byrd. That's so cynical. I feel the K bros lose some credit for handling each other's rematches. No other fighter in history needed to do that. Then even after that, Byrd rebuilds and at the time Lennox retires, Vitali and Byrd are ranked as the top 2 guys. But Vitali instead fought lower ranked guys. He could've become champ of the division and avenged a loss but chose a different path.
People also have this hard-luck view of Vitali that I don't support. For example he was unlucky to get badly cut vs Lennox in a fight he was doing well in. But really, cuts are part of boxing, and he was given time to try and get the stoppage and he couldn't do it. If anything he was fortunate to get an out of shape Lennox.
Reading through the thread, Dr Z (who has clearly lost the bet and is embarrassing himself twisting in the wind) wants to claim that Vitali beating Cubans proves greatness. Wants to claim beating heavy guys proves greatness. Well let's look at that in context. First of it's unfair to criticise past fighters for not facing Cubans if they had no way of doing it. They didn't avoid them. Very few ATGs have a win over a boxer of Arab descent. Does that mean Barrera deserves extra special credit for beating Hamed? Of course not.
If somebody clearly beat Rigo or Lara, they get credit for dealing with the Cuban style at the elite level. But Vitali beat Solis and Gomez. They were not great fighters so who cares where they came from? As for 'Vitali beat big men', Gomez was a cruiserweight who added fat to move up, then moved back down to cruiserweight afterwards. Solis made his name as an amateur at 200lbs, he was obese when he faced Vitali, so much so that his leg gave way in the first round! And this is being cited as evidence of Vitali's greatness, nobody who watched these fights would come away impressed.
If Vitali's injury losses don't count, why does injury his win over Solis count? Vitali probably holds the record for facing the most out of shape flabby guys in title fights. Remember the harpooned whale Kirk Johnson? We can dress that up as him beating 'big men' though I guess...
Then there is the suggestion that Vitali deserves credit for not drawing the colour line. When was the last time a HW champ was able to do that? The 1930s? Such a bizarre thing to credit a modern fighter for.
His fans go on and on about Lennox retiring as another case of bad luck for Vitali. But what about how Vitali was supposed to fight Rahman but instead he pulled out injured and retired? Then when Rahman is gone, Vitali comes back. Rahman would've been Vitali's best win. Seems like he benefitted from a timely retirement even more so than Lennox but his fans don't seem to mind that so much.
Lennox and Byrd are really the only 2 top level guys on his record, it's not a coincidence that those are the 2 to beat him. Vitali had a realistic chance to face and beat Lennox, Byrd and Rahman but instead beat none of those guys. He didn't rematch Byrd despite them being active at the same time for years afterwards, which is meaningful considering his fans think he deserves credit simply for wanting a rematch with Lennox.
JAB5239
That is a fact you lying, clut member, dishonorable, freak. Keep dressing up funny and attending your secret meetings
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