Vitali Klitschko, the last great heavyweight

[Ivich]

A fighter can't fight everyone who is ranked. This argument is silly, and you know it. I don't claim that Louis offered few title shots African Americans, I know this, and so do you. He hid behind the color line period. Vitali fought fighters from everywhere. All were over 200 pounds. Louis fought lost to three men under 200 pounds, and more with fair judging. By contast Vitali used no color line, and got zero gift decisions, which Louis did! He tried to get the re-match with Lennox Lewis. I think he wins the re-match, but Lewis who said he give the re-match on air and to the press folded when the money was up for the fight. Lewis balked. Your source for the 11 European guys are who and when could the match be made and offers for the fight are? Your list is laughable. Valuev was offered by Vitali and declined! Timor Ibragimov was not even ranked! Vitali fought and beat Kirk Johnson who was most certainly ring magazine ranked when he was is the question and Sam Peter ( raked #2 ) who of course both beat Maskev. The other fighters were either beaten by his brother, not ranked for long enough, or Vitali or quickly retired when he beat Wlad beat them. Read carefully what I said.

He cant fight everyone who is ranked but when he misses 26 of them and ,once champion defends against unranked opponents such as
Sosnowski
Charr
Briggs
Chisora
Mahone
Sullivan
Johnson
He forfeits the right to be called great.
When you try to smear Jack Johnson which you continuously do and you are asked which offers which matched his price Johnson turned down. You get all vague and say Russia and Australia made offers but that's as far as it ever goes,
Now your excuse for Vitali not fighting any of the 26 ranked men he avoided is no offers were made to him? You're a hypocrite.

[Ivich]

Really? It's the first time I've heard it. I know that k2 promotions normally required an option so that in case of a klit loss, the opponent would have to give a rematch or alternatively a fight with the other brother. Valuev talking about a seeming endless circle of rematches is something I've never heard of before and I wonder where you've seen it?

Sidenote: An option or 2 to the champions promotor in a titlefight contract is pretty standard as well know.

K2 required 2 options in a couple of instances.

[BattlingNelson]

K2 required 2 options in a couple of instances.

Have you heard others besides Valuev where it was a seemingly endless circle? Jab claims he has heard about so many that Valuevs claim is likely.

[Willow The Wisp]

Um , he did offer Valuev a fight. Valuev passed! It was a title match. And according to sources was talked about getting the winner between Peter and Maskaev, which of course tuned out to be Peter. Vitali only fought heavyweights as a boxing pro! Vitali gave 2 of his title shot to Eastern Europeans, Louis fought only 2 black men for title defenses or 3 if count his beating by Charles is 26 title shots. Disgraceful. Of course Louis used the color line and fought zero eastern europeans. Not to mention the fact he lost to three sub 200 pounds men. Make that 4 with fair judging ( Walcott fight ) and 5 if the losses to sub 200 pound men one of the Conn fights was 12 rounds!

All of the above is true.

To reiterate a point that I had made prior, during Louis' lengthy reign, there was no strongly deserved contender of any race, creed or national origin who went without a title shot. If it holds any meaning here (and even if it doesn't), during the lead up to the 2nd World War, efforts were undertaken to match Joe Louis against the famed Nikolai Fedorovich Korolev, the greatest of all Soviet heavyweight champions, who ruled from 1936 - 1945. The fight never came off, and Louis would have knocked him out anyway, as he would have any human being living on either side of the "Iron Curtain" in his prime.

[max baer]

To reiterate a point that I had made prior, during Louis' lengthy reign, there was no strongly deserved contender of any race, creed or national origin who went without a title shot. If it holds any meaning here (and even if it doesn't), during the lead up to the 2nd World War, efforts were undertaken to match Joe Louis against the famed Nikolai Fedorovich Korolev, the greatest of all Soviet heavyweight champions, who ruled from 1936 - 1945. The fight never came off, and Louis would have knocked him out anyway, as he would have any human being living on either side of the "Iron Curtain" in his prime.

I have seen both big george and iron mike say years ago that louis was the greatest of all time in the squared circle. he is very well considered by history.

[Dr. Z]

To reiterate a point that I had made prior, during Louis' lengthy reign, there was no strongly deserved contender of any race, creed or national origin who went without a title shot. If it holds any meaning here (and even if it doesn't), during the lead up to the 2nd World War, efforts were undertaken to match Joe Louis against the famed Nikolai Fedorovich Korolev, the greatest of all Soviet heavyweight champions, who ruled from 1936 - 1945. The fight never came off, and Louis would have knocked him out anyway, as he would have any human being living on either side of the "Iron Curtain" in his prime.

Elmer Ray didn't ever a tile shot? Furthermore the judging was suspect in the Wallcot fight. Only tw0 of Louis title defenses went to African Americans, the others were most white Americans. Are you telling me that ALL of 23 out of 26 tile defenses were just and none of the black talent should have been given a chance? Korolev career summary was as follows:

• Won 206 out of 219 matches, with 19 matches in international bouts
• 9 time heavyweight champion of the USSR (1936–1953)
• 4 time absolute champion of the USSR (1936–1937 and 1944–1945)
• Winner of the 1937 Workers' Olympiad in Antwerp
• Winner of international tournaments in Helsinki and Prague (1946)

He could have taken Louis towards his end for sure. Like I said Louis did not fight any eastern europeans either!

[JAB5239]

A fight between Valuev and a klit had been talk about for years and Valuev (Sauerland) had avoided it for just as long. Everybody who followed boxing knew that Valuev wouldn't stand a chance versus either klit, but the sales value of 2 eastern euro giants squaring off in western europe after the cold war was immense still. The risk for Sauerland that Valuev would end up being 'exposed' felt very real to me and that made them avoiding the klits perfectly alligned with german promotors behaviour in similar cases around that time.

I'd have Vits winning no doubt......Wlas as well.

[JAB5239]

Have you heard others besides Valuev where it was a seemingly endless circle? Jab claims he has heard about so many that Valuevs claim is likely.

I never said so many. I said I've heard it before. It's hard to search contracts as they don't seem to be public. But I believe Haye had a stipulation in his contract as well.

[Dr. Z]

He cant fight everyone who is ranked but when he misses 26 of them and ,once champion defends against unranked opponents such as
Sosnowski
Charr
Briggs
Chisora
Mahone
Sullivan
Johnson
He forfeits the right to be called great.
When you try to smear Jack Johnson which you continuously do and you are asked which offers which matched his price Johnson turned down. You get all vague and say Russia and Australia made offers but that's as far as it ever goes,
Now your excuse for Vitali not fighting any of the 26 ranked men he avoided is no offers were made to him? You're a hypocrite.

Who is to say they are not fighters with good records, all over 200 pounds and unlike you wife beating hero Jack Johnson Vitali did not lose matches to sub 200 pound men ( 162-175 ) pound men, or escape with a draws. In many cases they the ones you listed would be the best Jack Johnson beat! There is no head to head comparison, He crushes Jack Johnson, even you would likely agree to that. If you disagree you have say so and we will

Now who are these 26 men, and who offered ring ring contacts offered to fight them? You are a joke.

[JAB5239]

A fighter can't fight everyone who is ranked. This argument is silly, and you know it. I don't claim that Louis offered few title shots African Americans, I know this, and so do you. He hid behind the color line period. Vitali fought fighters from everywhere. All were over 200 pounds. Louis fought lost to three men under 200 pounds, and more with fair judging. By contast Vitali used no color line, and got zero gift decisions, which Louis did! He tried to get the re-match with Lennox Lewis. I think he wins the re-match, but Lewis who said he give the re-match on air and to the press folded when the money was up for the fight. Lewis balked. Your source for the 11 European guys are who and when could the match be made and offers for the fight are? Your list is laughable. Valuev was offered by Vitali and declined! Timor Ibragimov was not even ranked! Vitali fought and beat Kirk Johnson who was most certainly ring magazine ranked when he was is the question and Sam Peter ( raked #2 ) who of course both beat Maskev. The other fighters were either beaten by his brother, not ranked for long enough, or Vitali or quickly retired when he beat Wlad beat them. Read carefully what I said.

You keep saying over 200lbs as if it's relevant. Louis could not help that heavyweight began at 176. And you talk about Vits not being able to fight everyone, but you can't refute the facts I've posted. It's funny because Louis fought many more contenders, yet you don't give him the same pass and instead try to say he drew the color line, which is complete rubbish, and everyone knows it. Why did Wlad fight SO many more Ring ranked top 10 fighters than Vits?