Rocky vs Sonny Size Matchup

[Willie Pep 229]

- - 68" reach always amazes. What was Burns reach?

Telling that masters among master boxers Ez, Archie, and JJoe all studied Rocky fights in person before fighting him confident they could be the one to upend him.

Ooops!

Yea the one guy who never lost was the only champion who went into most (close to all) of his fights as beatable if not the underdog.

He never once held "U guy" status in his entire career.

[them_apples]

Yea the one guy who never lost was the only champion who went into most (close to all) of his fights as beatable if not the underdog.

He never once held "U guy" status in his entire career.

And based on styles I’m of the strong opinion that Rockys style would have done even better vs a lot of big men. Fights like Charles are very hard for Rocky because he had to find a target against and oponent who’s looking to make him miss and create openings.

His short reach May have given him problems against taller guys, but fighters like Holyfield, Frazier, Tyson, Quarry are all fair game for Marciano. And if they spend too much time in the pocket it could get ugly fast. I think if Marciano fought today the first thing that would surprised everyone would be his crunching power.

[Ivich]

Wait . . . Maybe an English-American translation thing but . . . Define "mock up" - because those tale of the tapes I posted are as they were in the newspaper at the time, not altered in any manner.

Mock up= approximate weights.We both know they were not the official weights DR Z, being a thicko ,took them as that.Common sense ain't that common!

[Ivich]

For my 2 cents I've got to go with the prevailing winds here and go with Liston and his commanding advantage in physical equipment and raptor jab against The Rock. Of course, when great fighters fight, great things can happen. In spite of his being one of the shortest, lightest and busted up champion in modern history, Marciano conversely enjoyed near unequaled marks in chin, ruggedness, conditioning, the sheer will to win and P4P power and strength to balance things. Might he have out-toughed Liston over the grueling long hall of a 15 round fight? I concede that far stranger things have happened.

Marciano's chin gets a lot of kudos, but how many top end ****ers did he face? How many modern sized heavies of any class who were prime did he meet? Marciano is not seeing the late stages of a fight with Liston imo ,so conditioning is not going to be a factor.
Now Rocky against men 190lbs and under is a different ball game.There are very very few of them I would give a shot against him,Langford,Dempsey, maybe a less ring- worn Charles, and possibly Tunney if he can keep away for 15 rds, that's about it

[them_apples]

Marciano's chin gets a lot of kudos, but how many top end ****ers did he face? How many modern sized heavies of any class who were prime did he meet? Marciano is not seeing the late stages of a fight with Liston imo ,so conditioning is not going to be a factor.
Now Rocky against men 190lbs and under is a different ball game.There are very very few of them I would give a shot against him,Langford,Dempsey, maybe a less ring- worn Charles, and possibly Tunney if he can keep away for 15 rds, that's about it

Weights got nothing to do with it. Liston is strong and dangerous.

rocky could hammer plenty of 200+ fighters to the canvas and probably did in sparring.

some 212 lb fighters are weak some are strong. Theres no weight threshhold here and no evidence that this even matters especially at heavyweight where a lot of the size isn’t always functional.

liston is 212, Wilder is 212 and Michael Spinks was 212. Joe Frazier was 205 and james Toney was 255.

weight is a vague way if figuring out someones size. vague

[Ivich]

Weights got nothing to do with it. Liston is strong and dangerous.

rocky could hammer plenty of 200+ fighters to the canvas and probably did in sparring.

some 212 lb fighters are weak some are strong. Theres no weight threshhold here and no evidence that this even matters especially at heavyweight where a lot of the size isn’t always functional.

Liston was exceptionally strong we have the testimony of another exceptionally strong boxer about that, Foreman
Bottom line Marciano is completely unproven against modern sized, class, prime heavyweights,he never fought one!
If it doesn't matter why aren't 185lbs 5 feet ten guys challenging for the heavyweight title because that's where the money is?
If it doesn't matter why did Michael Moorer add 35lbs to his frame to fight the heavies?
If it doesnt matter why did Mike Spinks add 30 lbs to his frame to fight Holmes?
If it doesn't matter why did Evander Holyfield bulk up by 25lbs to compete against the heavyweights?
If it doesn't matter why did Usyk add 23 lbs to his frame to fight the heavies, and why has he added still more to fight AJ in the rematch?
Do you know something they don't?

Here is Rocky standing next to 6 ft 3 in Ali.
Lewis is 2 inches taller than Ali has an 84inch reach and is30lbs of muscle heavier than Ali.
Marciano would look like a dwarf against Lennox !
Its a paradox that otherwise objective fans lose all sense of proportion and physics when Marciano 's name comes up. Its not as though he was even particularly fast or elusive,he was outboxed for rounds by average fighters like Lastarza, behind on points against 38years old Walcott,dropped by Moore whose Mother said he was 2 years older than he claimed,jabbed and marked up by a 37 years old one handed Louis whose left he could not avoid.
Walking down a 185lbs non puncher like Lastarza who had nothing to hurt him with and still needing11 rds to stop him on his feet is totally different to walking into Liston's artillery!
All his career Marciano was willing to take punishment to get his own punches off,that is a recipe for disaster against monster hitters like Liston,Foreman,Lewis.

[billeau2]

Liston was exceptionally strong we have the testimony of another exceptionally strong boxer about that, Foreman
Bottom line Marciano is completely unproven against modern sized, class, prime heavyweights,he never fought one!
If it doesn't matter why aren't 185lbs 5 feet ten guys challenging for the heavyweight title because that's where the money is?
If it doesn't matter why did Michael Moorer add 35lbs to his frame to fight the heavies?
If it doesnt matter why did Mike Spinks add 30 lbs to his frame to fight Holmes?
If it doesn't matter why did Evander Holyfield bulk up by 25lbs to compete against the heavyweights?
If it doesn't matter why did Usyk add 23 lbs to his frame to fight the heavies, and why has he added still more to fight AJ in the rematch?
Do you know something they don't?

Here is Rocky standing next to 6 ft 3 in Ali.
Lewis is 2 inches taller than Ali has an 84inch reach and is30lbs of muscle heavier than Ali.
Marciano would look like a dwarf against Lennox !
Its a paradox that otherwise objective fans lose all sense of proportion and physics when Marciano 's name comes up. Its not as though he was even particularly fast or elusive,he was outboxed for rounds by average fighters like Lastarza, behind on points against 38years old Walcott,dropped by Moore whose Mother said he was 2 years older than he claimed,jabbed and marked up by a 37 years old one handed Louis whose left he could not avoid.
Walking down a 185lbs non puncher like Lastarza who had nothing to hurt him with and still needing11 rds to stop him on his feet is totally different to walking into Liston's artillery!
All his career Marciano was willing to take punishment to get his own punches off,that is a recipe for disaster against monster hitters like Liston,Foreman,Lewis.

There is nothing illogical about your points... And of course there are those that just do lose all logic... But Marciano had a special way about him. If anyone had been in a room, back in time where they studied boxing...lets say for the sake of argument that pundits were allowed to study the art, history and technical aspects of prize fighting up until yesterday... then taken back given amnesia about Rocky's era and then asked how marciano would fare. Would one give him a chance to win once? Much less a championship? The guy had intangibles... And even winning against some guys post prime like Charles, Moore, etc was defying any reasonable analysis.

I tend to think Liston is chronically underated along with Jimmy Young. I can't see a way Marciano wins, but I would hate to bet against this guy considering who he did manage to beat. I also think marciano came in obsessively light for his fights. He would suck on steak and not swallow the meat, etc... Was this really better for him? what weight would he have fought comfortably at? I don't know the answer to these questions.

[QueensburyRules]

Liston was exceptionally strong we have the testimony of another exceptionally strong boxer about that, Foreman
Bottom line Marciano is completely unproven against modern sized, class, prime heavyweights,he never fought one!
If it doesn't matter why aren't 185lbs 5 feet ten guys challenging for the heavyweight title because that's where the money is?
If it doesn't matter why did Michael Moorer add 35lbs to his frame to fight the heavies?
If it doesnt matter why did Mike Spinks add 30 lbs to his frame to fight Holmes?
If it doesn't matter why did Evander Holyfield bulk up by 25lbs to compete against the heavyweights?
If it doesn't matter why did Usyk add 23 lbs to his frame to fight the heavies, and why has he added still more to fight AJ in the rematch?
Do you know something they don't?

Here is Rocky standing next to 6 ft 3 in Ali.
Lewis is 2 inches taller than Ali has an 84inch reach and is30lbs of muscle heavier than Ali.
Marciano would look like a dwarf against Lennox !
Its a paradox that otherwise objective fans lose all sense of proportion and physics when Marciano 's name comes up. Its not as though he was even particularly fast or elusive,he was outboxed for rounds by average fighters like Lastarza, behind on points against 38years old Walcott,dropped by Moore whose Mother said he was 2 years older than he claimed,jabbed and marked up by a 37 years old one handed Louis whose left he could not avoid.
Walking down a 185lbs non puncher like Lastarza who had nothing to hurt him with and still needing11 rds to stop him on his feet is totally different to walking into Liston's artillery!
All his career Marciano was willing to take punishment to get his own punches off,that is a recipe for disaster against monster hitters like Liston,Foreman,Lewis.

- Usyk is a traditional heavy, fight weight 215-220 lbs with a better heavy record than Vander, currently 27-0, 15 KO.

If he decides to come in heavy for the AJ rematch, that's a separate unproven issue independent of your misrepresentation of the facts.

[Ivich]

There is nothing illogical about your points... And of course there are those that just do lose all logic... But Marciano had a special way about him. If anyone had been in a room, back in time where they studied boxing...lets say for the sake of argument that pundits were allowed to study the art, history and technical aspects of prize fighting up until yesterday... then taken back given amnesia about Rocky's era and then asked how marciano would fare. Would one give him a chance to win once? Much less a championship? The guy had intangibles... And even winning against some guys post prime like Charles, Moore, etc was defying any reasonable analysis.

I tend to think Liston is chronically underated along with Jimmy Young. I can't see a way Marciano wins, but I would hate to bet against this guy considering who he did manage to beat. I also think marciano came in obsessively light for his fights. He would suck on steak and not swallow the meat, etc... Was this really better for him? what weight would he have fought comfortably at? I don't know the answer to these questions.

I'd give an undefeated big puncher with a good chin, strength, and desire a good chance against a 38 years old champion who had been kod 4 times, and floored several times by men not considered terrific punchers,a Champion who had lost 2 of his last 4 fights and had lost 18 fights.
Walcott was on the way out, his retirement immediately after the fights with Rocky confirms this. Rocky's style, or rather his lack of it flattered Walcott imo.Marciano was favourite to win in both Walcott fights a prohibitive 16/5 on fav for their 2nd encounter
The Walcott of the 1st Louis fight 5 years earlier, may have turned the trick against Rocky.
Louis was finished he had been kept away from punchers in his comeback and took the Marciano fight because he got the lions share of the purse and was heavily in debt to the IRS.He did okay for 3 rds staying in the fight with his left jab,his right hand was sheathed in a scabbard of rust.When his legs went on him the end result was a foregone conclusion.He was the sentimental favourite with the crowd but he was no longer the Brown Bomber and hadn't been at any stage of his comeback. Against Marciano Joe stood there and waited for Rocky to come to him,the Louis of old stalked his prey.
Like Walcott Charles had lost 2 of his last 4 fights ,one to177lbs Johnson, the 2 wins were over Coley Wallace whose real claim to fame was being a Louis look-alike.and a ko over oft ko'd 180lbs Satterfield. Marciano beating Charles was not any kind of upset, the upset was Charles going 15 rds without being floored,Charles had nearly 100 fights on his ring clock , it was his swan song.
"It was the second fight between the pair and the result was just about what most fans expected. Marciano was the favorite, at odds of 9 to 2, to dispose of the skillful Negro from Cincinnati, with a knockout ending being generally predicted.

In their first fight, last June 17, Rocky was expected to dispose of Ez by a knockout, "


Maybe the Charles of a few years earlier might have succeeded though I would not make him or Walcott favourite to do so.
Moore claimed to be 39 his Mother said he was 2 years older, Marciano was the firm 4/1 on favourite to win.Marciano just wore Archie down.Marciano was favourite to beat Moore
Marciano was a small framed man his weight was in his legs and brawny forearms he had a small chest for a middleweight let alone a heavyweight! Adding pounds to that frame would have just negatively affected his stamina and slowed him down more imo.
Even allowing for discrepancies Rocky was small for a heavy I had a bigger chest and biceps than him when I left college and was in shape.

[Willie Pep 229]

Ah! Ha! - I see it all so clearly now - it's in ankle size. Marciano had him beat in ankle size by a full 1/4 inch. I'm amazed Walcott lasted as long as he did with such a disadvantage.

Just look at the numbers: Bicep to Walcott; chest to Walcott; chest expanded to Walcott; reach to Walcott; height to Walcott; neck to Walcott; forearm to Walcott; fist to Walcott; weight to Walcott. But ankle to Marciano.

I wish I had recognized this earlier I could have made a small fortune betting on ankle size.

Need to do some research of past fight results and ankle size. I'll get back to you all with the numbers.