Does Fury get a "Historical Bump" for this KO?

[Willow The Wisp]

AJ's best win is a Fury leftover.

The Gypsy King is the best heavyweight of this era. You'll just have to learn to live with it.

He certainly is, and it's no longer even debatable. What has emerged, even without the greatly anticipated full round-robin that was ruined by Covid-19 and Joshua's two exposure moments, we have now a clear pecking order for this era that outlines 1. Tyson Fury 2. Deontay Wilder 3. Anthony Joshua 4. The best of the rest (Ortiz, Usyk, Ruiz Jr., Whyte, Joyce, Parker, Martin, etc.).
The winner of Joshua - Usyk II should assume a spot behind Deontay Wilder. He would have to do more than win that fight, IMO, to overtake Wilder at no. 2. The loser gets knocked out of the discussion as a top 3 or or even as a lock for no. 4, and joins the others mentioned as the best of the Rest to fight it out ouside of the throne room. From a century perspective....100 years ago, many scribes and historians were lauding Jack Dempsey as the best of all time, supassing Corbett, Jeffries, Johnson Langford and all who came before for that lofty distinction. That desination did not survive unchallenged over the 78 years that followed, as the names of Louis, Marciano, Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Holmes would attach their own adherents to advocate their consideration for the title of century's best. We can imagine that as the 21st century winds onward, new immortals will emerge, drawing from the constant of athletic tough guys who won't settle for an average paycheck or dressing up to play a kid's game on a field. Over time, we may see a longstanding champion win epic wars and be argued as being better even than Tyson Fury in the 21st century. But for the moment, hes not only the best of his era, he's the best of mankind's most recent century as well.

[Ivich]

He certainly is, and it's no longer even debatable. What has emerged, even without the greatly anticipated full round-robin that was ruined by Covid-19 and Joshua's two exposure moments, we have now a clear pecking order for this era that outlines 1. Tyson Fury 2. Deontay Wilder 3. Anthony Joshua 4. The best of the rest (Ortiz, Usyk, Ruiz Jr., Whyte, Joyce, Parker, Martin, etc.).
The winner of Joshua - Usyk II should assume a spot behind Deontay Wilder. He would have to do more than win that fight, IMO, to overtake Wilder at no. 2. The loser gets knocked out of the discussion as a top 3 or or even as a lock for no. 4, and joins the others mentioned as the best of the Rest to fight it out ouside of the throne room. From a century perspective....100 years ago, many scribes and historians were lauding Jack Dempsey as the best of all time, supassing Corbett, Jeffries, Johnson Langford and all who came before for that lofty distinction. That desination did not survive unchallenged over the 78 years that followed, as the names of Louis, Marciano, Ali, Frazier, Foreman and Holmes would attach their own adherents to advocate their consideration for the title of century's best. We can imagine that as the 21st century winds onward, new immortals will emerge, drawing from the constant of athletic tough guys who won't settle for an average paycheck or dressing up to play a kid's game on a field. Over time, we may see a longstanding champion win epic wars and be argued as being better even than Tyson Fury in the 21st century. But for the moment, hes not only the best of his era, he's the best of mankind's most recent century as well.

How do we know Wilder is better than Joshua What in his resume indicates it?

[ShoulderRoll]

How do we know Wilder is better than Joshua What in his resume indicates it?

It's educated guesswork, but if Usyk and Andy Ruiz could hurt Joshua then it's reasonable to assume that a Wilder right hand would vaporize him.

[BattlingNelson]

Rating Fury over Wlad is absurd. He is a juicer and his best wins are against a washed up Klitschko while probably on peds, and an overrated skillless yank without a win over a fighter that has beat a top 10 opponent.

Whatever. Rating Fury now is premature. His opponents may go on to do big things in the coming years and he may beat Usyk and AJ which would be his best wins by miles.

[The Old LefHook]

Little kids on here dominating the conversations!

[Ivich]

It's educated guesswork, but if Usyk and Andy Ruiz could hurt Joshua then it's reasonable to assume that a Wilder right hand would vaporize him.

If Fury could stop Wilder twice ,its reasonable to assume Joshua would vaporize him. If Chisora went the distance with Vitali,its reasonable to assume he would do the same against Fury and Haye except he didn't.
If Foreman could bounce Frazier like a ball,the same Frazier who beat Ali dropping him along the way,its reasonable to assume Foreman would vaporize Ali, except he didn't.Ditto scenario with Foreman nearly decapitating Norton who gave Ali fits.Ali will be cake for George right?Except he wasn't.
If Henry Cooper could knock Ali down Liston would vaporize him right?
If Joshua could beat Parker who beat Ruiz then Joshua shouldn't have much trouble with him,except he did.
Joe Louis is going to fight Schmeling and he has already stopped Baer who stopped Schmeling so its going to be an easy night for him right? Except it wasn't.

Boxing isn't that simple
If Usyk beats Joshua again, as I fully expect him to do,and perhaps even stops him late like he seemed on the way to doing in their first fight ,fights Fury and out boxes him to take a decision all these posters now calling Fury an ATG on the basis of beating 3 top ten men in his entire career.are going to look awfully silly.And many will be coming out of the woodwork saying I never thought he was anything special anyway!

[Willow The Wisp]

How do we know Wilder is better than Joshua What in his resume indicates it?

Well; frankly we don't. Not if I'm being honest; and what's fun about that? If the two were to fight, we would certainly have better insight to chew on. But to date we've not got that and I have little faith that Eddie Hearn would allow such a risk until he were certain that he was squeezing the last bit of big fight deservidness out of his charge. But even without that sold date, Ivich and Willie Pep 229 deserve my best. So here goes....... of course, when one expresses an opinion and it is phrased like an inarguable fact, this is ample provocation. If he adds a list; it's hunting season. Never mind though; you are all my Boxing Scene friends and I cherish you each and all. So shoot big holes in the values that I assign to the respective title claimant's opponents, *******ly making use of firepower, absurd or otherwise. Just acknowledge that this is as good an attempt as any at quantifying the relative career merits of these two famous belligerents. To answer your question, Ivich “How do we know Wilder is better than Joshua – What in his resume indicates it?” Principally, we cannot ignore what's lacking in Wilder's ledger. Specifically, An absolute beat down by a highly capable but just outside the top 10 ranked contender (Ruiz) in which the then soaring Multi-belt champion heir apparent was in charge when scoring a knockdown, then floored twice in return, and rendered looking for all the world like a fellow contemplating his career choice, as the referee was forced to end his unbeaten string. There is that; and there is also the other Joshua debacle whereby he was completely out-marshalled by an exceptional former crusierweight who up until that point was patently unimpressive at Heavyweight. Two very different kinds of losses, almost spanning the breath of how one can be summarily beaten (One outfought, the other outthought); and neihter of them looking good for the beloved would-be last man standing for this era. Frankly, I might have thought that the “Joshua is still better than Wilder” train had left the station after Usyk. Wilder and Fury did their part to create the Ali-Frazier-Foreman (& Norton) tournament of the 21^st century, with spectacular results, showing Fury emerge the better man, if only just; picking himself up off the floor FOUR times to do it! Joshua would have preferred to join in, but kept stumbling against opposition that he should have overcame. Wilder never once did that. Ruiz and Usyk each look to Joshua as their main accomplishment at Heavyweight with modest else claim at the weight.

Don't let me mislead. I see Joshua, damaged though he may be; as better than almost all the Heavyweights who've come down the path on the last 40 years. But better than Fury? I simply don't. Better than Wilder? Well, we're never going to extract the subjectivity out of THAT question until they fight; and I hope that they do. I cannot defend my position on the matter without a gross ton of subjectivity and neither can anyone with an opposing point of view. But I can attempt to explain my reasoning.

Anthony Joshua weighed in on the # 2 or #3 of the “Big Three” in the Heavyweight division just prior to his 2^nd loss, against Ustk, saying about Deontay Wilder: "I'm an elite level fighter, not one of the tomato cans he's knocked out. He better watch what he's saying because when the day comes for me and him, I know what I'm capable of doing. He ain't an elite level fighter".

The talk was not just softened after Joshua was send reeling against the (comparatively) soft hitting Ukrainian Usyk; it stopped entirely. As well is should.




I've been an Anthony Joshua supporter since before the 2011 world championships and I think that, like Tyson Fury, he's a brilliant fighter. But.......Did he really say these things, from his mouth???? Sounds arrogant to me.

We all know that silly banter between fighters is common, and not serious, of course. However; the often repeated acertion that Joshua has fought a MUCH higher level of competition than Wilder has simply does not align with the facts.

If you knew me outside of my posts here, you would know that I am all about the facts.




Apply some objective science:




Points awarded to the quality of an opponent at the time of their fight with the respective champions.

On a scale of 1-10 (One is a terrible fighter/Ten Is Hall of fame-prime of career level Champion):





Joshua Resume:




Matt Skelton, 28-8-0, Long faded former fringe contender, K-1 contender........4 points

Kingpin Johnson, 29-6-1, Gate keeper, non-contender.......................5 points

Gary Cornish, 21-0-0, Domestic prospect, non-contender...................5 points

Dillian Whyte, 16-0-0, Prospect in development, would emerge later as a contender......8 points

Charles Martin, 23-0-1, Prospect in development, fortunate to be a beltholder............7 points

Dominic Breazeale, 17-0-0, Prospect in development, fringe contender.....................6 points

Eric Molina, 25-3-0, Gate keeper, non-contender............................5 points

Wladamir Klitschko, 64-4-0, Ex-champion defeated by Fury, Retired, 41 years old.......9 points

Carlos Takam, 35-3-1, Dangerious fringe contender........................................7 points

Joseph Parker, 24-0-0, Top 5 contender, beltholder, would later disappoint........9 points

Alexander Povetkin, 34-1-0, Longtime top contender. Slightly past prime at 39............8 points

Andy Ruiz Jr., 32-1-0, Solid fringe contender ranked just outside top 10. .......8 points LOSS

Andy Ruiz Jr. II, 33-1-0, Fat, lathargic in the rematch......................8 points

Kubrat Pulev, 28-1-0, Another Longtime top contender. Past prime at 39............8 points

Oleksandr Usyk, 18-0-0, Cruiserweight unifier, untested at heavyweight...............9 points LOSS




Sub total – Quality of Opposition.................89 Total Points




Career building opponents:

Average ranking of Joshua's other 11 opponents.......................3 points

Bonus Points awarded for the sheer number of those early/lesser opponents............3




Grand total – Quality of Opposition.................95 Total Points







Weighted value – Point deductions for losses (Opponent value x severity of loss/Informed subjective):

(-8 points for Ruiz Jr I)

(-8 points for Usyk)

Sub-Total: -16 Points




Final Score minus losses: 79 Career Points for Quality of opposition value



















Wilder Resume




Kelvin Price, 13-0-0, Fellow prospect, non-contender...............4 points

Audley Harrison, 31-6-0, Long faded former fringe contender, Olympian......4 points

Malik Scott, 36-1-1, Fellow prospect, non-contender...............5 points

Bermane Stivern I, 24-1-1, World ranked title holder in prime............7 points

Eric Molina, 23-2-0, Gate keeper, non-contender............................5 points

Johann Duhaupas, 32-2-0, Top 15 ranked fringe contender............6 points

Artur Szpilka, 20-1-0, Lower regarded fringe contender, later disappointed..........5 points

Chris Arreola, 36-4-1, Longtime contender, still near prime...........6 points

Gerald Washington, 18-0-1, Newly emerged contender.................6 points

Bermane Stivern II, 25-2-1, World ranked former title holder............6 points

Luis Ortiz I, 28-0-0, Top ranked world title contender....................9 points

Tyson Fury I, 27-0-0, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion, unification......10 points

Dominic Breazeale, 20-1-0, Contemporary contender in 2^nd title shot.............6 points

Luis Ortiz II, 31-1-0, Top ranked world title contender in rematch....................8 points

Tyson Fury II, 29-0-1, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion, unification......10 points LOSS

Tyson Fury III, 30-0-1, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion......10 points LOSS







Sub total – Quality of Opposition.................87 Total Points




Career building opponents:

Average ranking of Wilder's other 29 opponents.......................3 points

Bonus Points awarded for the sheer number of those early/lesser opponents...................5




Grand total – Quality of Opposition.................95 Total Points







Weighted value – Point deductions for losses (Opponent value x severity of loss/Informed subjective):

(-7 points for Fury II)

(-6 points for Fury III)

Sub-Total: -13 Points




Final Score minus losses: 82 Career Points for Quality of opposition value













Conclusion:

Deontay Wilder's career opponents earn him 82 points, while Anthony Joshua's earn him only 79. This fan-friendly narrative that claims that “Wilder has fought bums” and Joshua has fought better contenders is inaccurate. Wilder has fought better opposition than Joshua has in the professional ranks; and has rendered better result against them; and any counter opinion is simply delusion.




To Joshua's fans; Remember..........................Facts don't care about your feelings.

[Nash out]

Well; frankly we don't. Not if I'm being honest; and what's fun about that? If the two were to fight, we would certainly have better insight to chew on. But to date we've not got that and I have little faith that Eddie Hearn would allow such a risk until he were certain that he was squeezing the last bit of big fight deservidness out of his charge. But even without that sold date, Ivich and Willie Pep 229 deserve my best. So here goes....... of course, when one expresses an opinion and it is phrased like an inarguable fact, this is ample provocation. If he adds a list; it's hunting season. Never mind though; you are all my Boxing Scene friends and I cherish you each and all. So shoot big holes in the values that I assign to the respective title claimant's opponents, *******ly making use of firepower, absurd or otherwise. Just acknowlege that this is as good an attempt as any at quentifying the relative career merits of these two famous beligerants. To answer your question, Ivich “How do we know Wilder is better than Joshua – What in his resume indicates it?” Principaly, we cannot ignore what's lacking in Wilder's leger. Specifically, An absolute beat down by a highly capible but just outside the top 10 ranked contender (Ruiz) in which the then soaring Multi-belt champion heir apparent was in charge when scorring a knockdown, then floored twice in return, and rendered looking for all the world like a fellow contemplating his career choice, as the referee was forced to end his unbeaten string. There is that; and there is also the other Joshua debockle whereby he was completely outmarshalled by an exceptional former crusierweight who up until that point was patently unimpressive at Heavyweight. Two very different kinds of losses, almost spanning the breath of how one can be summarily beaten (One outfought, the other outthought); and neighter of them looking good for the beloved would-be last man standing for this era. Frankly, I might have thought that the “Joshua is still better than Wilder” train had left the station after Usyk. Wilder and Fury did their part to create the Ali-Frazier-Foreman (& Norton) tournament of the 21^st century, with spectacular results, showing Fury emerge the better man, if only just; picking himself up off the floor FOUR times to do it! Joshua would have preferred to join in, but kept stumbling against opposition that he should have overcame. Wilder never once did that. Ruiz and Usyk each look to Joshua as their main accomplishment at Heavyweight with modest else claim at the weight.

Don't let me mislead. I see Joshua, damaged though he may be; as better than almost all the Heavyweights who've come down the path on the last 40 years. But better than Fury? I simply don't. Better than Wilder? Well, we're never going to extract the subjectivity out of THAT question until they fight; and I hope that they do. I cannot defend my position on the matter without a gross ton of subjectivity and neither can anyone with an opposing point of view. But I can attempt to explain my reasoning.

Anthony Joshua weighed in on the # 2 or #3 of the “Big Three” in the Heavyweight division just prior to his 2^nd loss, against Ustk, saying about Deontay Wilder: "I'm an elite level fighter, not one of the tomato cans he's knocked out. He better watch what he's saying because when the day comes for me and him, I know what I'm capable of doing. He ain't an elite level fighter".

The talk was not just softened after Joshua was send reeling against the (comparatively) soft hitting Ukrainian Usyk; it stopped entirely. As well is should.




I've been an Anthony Joshua supporter since before the 2011 world championships and I think that, like Tyson Fury, he's a brilliant fighter. But.......Did he really say these things, from his mouth???? Sounds arrogant to me.

We all know that silly banter between fighters is common, and not serious, of course. However; the often repeated ascetion that Joshua has fought a MUCH higher level of competition than Wilder has simply does not align with the facts.

If you knew me outside of my posts here, you would know that I am all about the facts.




Apply some objective science:




Points awarded to the quality of an opponent at the time of their fight with the respective champions.

On a scale of 1-10 (One is a terrible fighter/Ten Is Hall of fame-prime of career level Champion):




Joshua Resume:




Matt Skelton, 28-8-0, Long faded former fringe contender, K-1 contender........4 points

Kingpin Johnson, 29-6-1, Gate keeper, non-contender.......................5 points

Gary Cornish, 21-0-0, Domestic prospect, non-contender...................5 points

Dillian Whyte, 16-0-0, Prospect in development, would emerge later as a contender......8 points

Charles Martin, 23-0-1, Prospect in development, fortunate to be a beltholder............7 points

Dominic Breazeale, 17-0-0, Prospect in development, fringe contender.....................6 points

Eric Molina, 25-3-0, Gate keeper, non-contender............................5 points

Wladamir Klitschko, 64-4-0, Ex-champion defeated by Fury, Retired, 41 years old.......9 points

Carlos Takam, 35-3-1, Dangerious fringe contender........................................7 points

Joseph Parker, 24-0-0, Top 5 contender, beltholder, would later disappoint........9 points

Alexander Povetkin, 34-1-0, Longtime top contender. Slightly past prime at 39............8 points

Andy Ruiz Jr., 32-1-0, Solid fringe contender ranked just outside top 10. .......8 points LOSS

Andy Ruiz Jr. II, 33-1-0, Fat, lathargic in the rematch......................8 points

Kubrat Pulev, 28-1-0, Another Longtime top contender. Past prime at 39............8 points

Oleksandr Usyk, 18-0-0, Cruiserweight unifier, untested at heavyweight...............9 points LOSS




Sub total – Quality of Opposition.................89 Total Points




Career building opponents:

Average ranking of Joshua's other 11 opponents.......................3 points

Bonus Points awarded for the sheer number of those early/lesser opponents............3




Grand total – Quality of Opposition.................95 Total Points







Weighted value – Point deductions for losses (Opponent value x severity of loss/Informed subjective):

(-8 points for Ruiz Jr I)

(-8 points for Usyk)

Sub-Total: -16 Points




Final Score minus losses: 79 Career Points for Quality of opposition value



















Wilder Resume




Kelvin Price, 13-0-0, Fellow prospect, non-contender...............4 points

Audley Harrison, 31-6-0, Long faded former fringe contender, Olympian......4 points

Malik Scott, 36-1-1, Fellow prospect, non-contender...............5 points

Bermane Stivern I, 24-1-1, World ranked title holder in prime............7 points

Eric Molina, 23-2-0, Gate keeper, non-contender............................5 points

Johann Duhaupas, 32-2-0, Top 15 ranked fringe contender............6 points

Artur Szpilka, 20-1-0, Lower regarded fringe contender, later disappointed..........5 points

Chris Arreola, 36-4-1, Longtime contender, still near prime...........6 points

Gerald Washington, 18-0-1, Newly emerged contender.................6 points

Bermane Stivern II, 25-2-1, World ranked former title holder............6 points

Luis Ortiz I, 28-0-0, Top ranked world title contender....................9 points

Tyson Fury I, 27-0-0, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion, unification......10 points

Dominic Breazeale, 20-1-0, Contemporary contender in 2^nd title shot.............6 points

Luis Ortiz II, 31-1-0, Top ranked world title contender in rematch....................8 points

Tyson Fury II, 29-0-1, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion, unification......10 points LOSS

Tyson Fury III, 30-0-1, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion......10 points LOSS







Sub total – Quality of Opposition.................87 Total Points




Career building opponents:

Average ranking of Wilder's other 29 opponents.......................3 points

Bonus Points awarded for the sheer number of those early/lesser opponents...................5




Grand total – Quality of Opposition.................95 Total Points







Weighted value – Point deductions for losses (Opponent value x severity of loss/Informed subjective):

(-7 points for Fury II)

(-6 points for Fury III)

Sub-Total: -13 Points




Final Score minus losses: 82 Career Points for Quality of opposition value













Conclusion:

Deontay Wilder's career opponents earn him 82 points, while Anthony Joshua's earn him only 79. This fan-friendly narrative that claims that “Wilder has fought bums” and Joshua has fought better contenders is inaccurate. Wilder has fought better opposition than Joshua has in the professional ranks; and has rendered better result against them; and any counter opinion is simply delusion.




To Joshua's fans; Remember..........................Facts don't care about your feelings.

Nash agrees with your post and reasoning. Nash also considers your fighter ratings to be very accurate. Nash applauds Willow. Nash out.

[billeau2]

- - The Fury left over(Wlad) that melted Fury like a boy scout camp marshmallow in the rematch that took Fury 3 years to recover from.

GypsoKingso ducking AJ riches multi x to fight low hanging fruits of fellow AJ duckees Deyonce and Whyte for peanuts...priceless for U princesses.

What grade U in?

[billeau2]

Rating Fury over Wlad is absurd. He is a juicer and his best wins are against a washed up Klitschko while probably on peds, and an overrated skillless yank without a win over a fighter that has beat a top 10 opponent.

Whatever. Rating Fury now is premature. His opponents may go on to do big things in the coming years and he may beat Usyk and AJ which would be his best wins by miles.

Batts...Batts!!! Batts!!!!! Fury outclassed Wlad! He didn't just beat him, he stopped him from throwing anything the whole fight.