Does Fury get a "Historical Bump" for this KO?

[markusmod]

Batts...Batts!!! Batts!!!!! Fury outclassed Wlad! He didn't just beat him, he stopped him from throwing anything the whole fight.

It was so weird. Wlad looked like he turned old, but then looked like a hungry bull with Joshua two years later

[BattlingNelson]

Batts...Batts!!! Batts!!!!! Fury outclassed Wlad! He didn't just beat him, he stopped him from throwing anything the whole fight.

Omg. Was that a prime Wlad?

[Ivich]

Well; frankly we don't. Not if I'm being honest; and what's fun about that? If the two were to fight, we would certainly have better insight to chew on. But to date we've not got that and I have little faith that Eddie Hearn would allow such a risk until he were certain that he was squeezing the last bit of big fight deservidness out of his charge. But even without that sold date, Ivich and Willie Pep 229 deserve my best. So here goes....... of course, when one expresses an opinion and it is phrased like an inarguable fact, this is ample provocation. If he adds a list; it's hunting season. Never mind though; you are all my Boxing Scene friends and I cherish you each and all. So shoot big holes in the values that I assign to the respective title claimant's opponents, *******ly making use of firepower, absurd or otherwise. Just acknowledge that this is as good an attempt as any at quantifying the relative career merits of these two famous belligerents. To answer your question, Ivich “How do we know Wilder is better than Joshua – What in his resume indicates it?” Principally, we cannot ignore what's lacking in Wilder's ledger. Specifically, An absolute beat down by a highly capable but just outside the top 10 ranked contender (Ruiz) in which the then soaring Multi-belt champion heir apparent was in charge when scoring a knockdown, then floored twice in return, and rendered looking for all the world like a fellow contemplating his career choice, as the referee was forced to end his unbeaten string. There is that; and there is also the other Joshua debacle whereby he was completely out-marshalled by an exceptional former crusierweight who up until that point was patently unimpressive at Heavyweight. Two very different kinds of losses, almost spanning the breath of how one can be summarily beaten (One outfought, the other outthought); and neihter of them looking good for the beloved would-be last man standing for this era. Frankly, I might have thought that the “Joshua is still better than Wilder” train had left the station after Usyk. Wilder and Fury did their part to create the Ali-Frazier-Foreman (& Norton) tournament of the 21^st century, with spectacular results, showing Fury emerge the better man, if only just; picking himself up off the floor FOUR times to do it! Joshua would have preferred to join in, but kept stumbling against opposition that he should have overcame. Wilder never once did that. Ruiz and Usyk each look to Joshua as their main accomplishment at Heavyweight with modest else claim at the weight.

Don't let me mislead. I see Joshua, damaged though he may be; as better than almost all the Heavyweights who've come down the path on the last 40 years. But better than Fury? I simply don't. Better than Wilder? Well, we're never going to extract the subjectivity out of THAT question until they fight; and I hope that they do. I cannot defend my position on the matter without a gross ton of subjectivity and neither can anyone with an opposing point of view. But I can attempt to explain my reasoning.

Anthony Joshua weighed in on the # 2 or #3 of the “Big Three” in the Heavyweight division just prior to his 2^nd loss, against Ustk, saying about Deontay Wilder: "I'm an elite level fighter, not one of the tomato cans he's knocked out. He better watch what he's saying because when the day comes for me and him, I know what I'm capable of doing. He ain't an elite level fighter".

The talk was not just softened after Joshua was send reeling against the (comparatively) soft hitting Ukrainian Usyk; it stopped entirely. As well is should.




I've been an Anthony Joshua supporter since before the 2011 world championships and I think that, like Tyson Fury, he's a brilliant fighter. But.......Did he really say these things, from his mouth???? Sounds arrogant to me.

We all know that silly banter between fighters is common, and not serious, of course. However; the often repeated acertion that Joshua has fought a MUCH higher level of competition than Wilder has simply does not align with the facts.

If you knew me outside of my posts here, you would know that I am all about the facts.




Apply some objective science:




Points awarded to the quality of an opponent at the time of their fight with the respective champions.

On a scale of 1-10 (One is a terrible fighter/Ten Is Hall of fame-prime of career level Champion):





Joshua Resume:




Matt Skelton, 28-8-0, Long faded former fringe contender, K-1 contender........4 points

Kingpin Johnson, 29-6-1, Gate keeper, non-contender.......................5 points

Gary Cornish, 21-0-0, Domestic prospect, non-contender...................5 points

Dillian Whyte, 16-0-0, Prospect in development, would emerge later as a contender......8 points

Charles Martin, 23-0-1, Prospect in development, fortunate to be a beltholder............7 points

Dominic Breazeale, 17-0-0, Prospect in development, fringe contender.....................6 points

Eric Molina, 25-3-0, Gate keeper, non-contender............................5 points

Wladamir Klitschko, 64-4-0, Ex-champion defeated by Fury, Retired, 41 years old.......9 points

Carlos Takam, 35-3-1, Dangerious fringe contender........................................7 points

Joseph Parker, 24-0-0, Top 5 contender, beltholder, would later disappoint........9 points

Alexander Povetkin, 34-1-0, Longtime top contender. Slightly past prime at 39............8 points

Andy Ruiz Jr., 32-1-0, Solid fringe contender ranked just outside top 10. .......8 points LOSS

Andy Ruiz Jr. II, 33-1-0, Fat, lathargic in the rematch......................8 points

Kubrat Pulev, 28-1-0, Another Longtime top contender. Past prime at 39............8 points

Oleksandr Usyk, 18-0-0, Cruiserweight unifier, untested at heavyweight...............9 points LOSS




Sub total – Quality of Opposition.................89 Total Points




Career building opponents:

Average ranking of Joshua's other 11 opponents.......................3 points

Bonus Points awarded for the sheer number of those early/lesser opponents............3




Grand total – Quality of Opposition.................95 Total Points







Weighted value – Point deductions for losses (Opponent value x severity of loss/Informed subjective):

(-8 points for Ruiz Jr I)

(-8 points for Usyk)

Sub-Total: -16 Points




Final Score minus losses: 79 Career Points for Quality of opposition value



















Wilder Resume




Kelvin Price, 13-0-0, Fellow prospect, non-contender...............4 points

Audley Harrison, 31-6-0, Long faded former fringe contender, Olympian......4 points

Malik Scott, 36-1-1, Fellow prospect, non-contender...............5 points

Bermane Stivern I, 24-1-1, World ranked title holder in prime............7 points

Eric Molina, 23-2-0, Gate keeper, non-contender............................5 points

Johann Duhaupas, 32-2-0, Top 15 ranked fringe contender............6 points

Artur Szpilka, 20-1-0, Lower regarded fringe contender, later disappointed..........5 points

Chris Arreola, 36-4-1, Longtime contender, still near prime...........6 points

Gerald Washington, 18-0-1, Newly emerged contender.................6 points

Bermane Stivern II, 25-2-1, World ranked former title holder............6 points

Luis Ortiz I, 28-0-0, Top ranked world title contender....................9 points

Tyson Fury I, 27-0-0, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion, unification......10 points

Dominic Breazeale, 20-1-0, Contemporary contender in 2^nd title shot.............6 points

Luis Ortiz II, 31-1-0, Top ranked world title contender in rematch....................8 points

Tyson Fury II, 29-0-1, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion, unification......10 points LOSS

Tyson Fury III, 30-0-1, Undefeated linial (actual) World Champion......10 points LOSS







Sub total – Quality of Opposition.................87 Total Points




Career building opponents:

Average ranking of Wilder's other 29 opponents.......................3 points

Bonus Points awarded for the sheer number of those early/lesser opponents...................5




Grand total – Quality of Opposition.................95 Total Points







Weighted value – Point deductions for losses (Opponent value x severity of loss/Informed subjective):

(-7 points for Fury II)

(-6 points for Fury III)

Sub-Total: -13 Points




Final Score minus losses: 82 Career Points for Quality of opposition value













Conclusion:

Deontay Wilder's career opponents earn him 82 points, while Anthony Joshua's earn him only 79. This fan-friendly narrative that claims that “Wilder has fought bums” and Joshua has fought better contenders is inaccurate. Wilder has fought better opposition than Joshua has in the professional ranks; and has rendered better result against them; and any counter opinion is simply delusion.




To Joshua's fans; Remember..........................Facts don't care about your feelings.

I'm not a particular fan of AJ but including never wassers like Harrison and Price in Wilder's resume in a palpable attempt to give him more brownie points to win a debate strikes me as not only highly dubious ,but smacking of agenda.

If you're going to give points for whom a fighter faced rather than whom he beat, Fireman Jim Flynn becomes an ATG!

Bottom line AJ has beaten 4 top ten ranked heavyweights
Wlad ,Parker,Pulev,Ruiz.
Wilder has beaten 2.
Stiverne ,Ortiz.

[Willow The Wisp]

I'm not a particular fan of AJ but including never wassers like Harrison and Price in Wilder's resume in a palpable attempt to give him more brownie points to win a debate strikes me as not only highly dubious ,but smacking of agenda.

If you're going to give points for whom a fighter faced rather than whom he beat, Fireman Jim Flynn becomes an ATG!

Bottom line AJ has beaten 4 top ten ranked heavyweights
Wlad ,Parker,Pulev,Ruiz.
Wilder has beaten 2.
Stiverne ,Ortiz.

No. that's a fallacious formula you've rushed to cobble together, I'm thinking. Losses matter, depth of competition matters. Especially when the claim is “Joshua has fought better competition, Wilder has fought only Bums”, as you'll witness being stated on this board frequently. You're arguing the Ross Puritty formula. You can do better than that. I've seen you do it. Not that your point is without it's merit, I'd just hate to see you paint yourself into a corner with the adrenaline that comes from having this need to win a debate. All the work done should be tallied, if one is to substantiate the Q.O.O. Claim.




Is (Old) Wlad, Parker, (Old) Pulev, Ruiz really “better” than Stiverne, Ortiz (And Fury, with whom Wilder foguht a Draw)? The litmus test for Joshua v. Wilder opponents might be called the Luis Ortiz vs. Charles Martin fight.

[Ivich]

No. that's a fallacious formula you've rushed to cobble together, I'm thinking. Losses matter, depth of competition matters. Especially when the claim is “Joshua has fought better competition, Wilder has fought only Bums”, as you'll witness being stated on this board frequently. You're arguing the Ross Puritty formula. You can do better than that. I've seen you do it. Not that your point is without it's merit, I'd just hate to see you paint yourself into a corner with the adrenaline that comes from having this need to win a debate. All the work done should be tallied, if one is to substantiate the Q.O.O. Claim.




Is (Old) Wlad, Parker, (Old) Pulev, Ruiz really “better” than Stiverne, Ortiz (And Fury, with whom Wilder foguht a Draw)? The litmus test for Joshua v. Wilder opponents might be called the Luis Ortiz vs. Charles Martin fight.

I haven't claimed.Wilder has fought only Bums.
I don't need to win debates, I'd rather lose them and learn something in the process but I haven't learnt anything on this forum yet. Apart from yourself and a couple of others the standard here is pretty dire and seems to consist of compulsive trolling and calling posters such intelligent epiphets as cum dumpster and saying phuck off to them.No boxing forum I have previously been on would tolerate these childish morons for more than a day.
I don't think I'll be here long.

[Willow The Wisp]

I haven't claimed.Wilder has fought only Bums.
I don't need to win debates, I'd rather lose them and learn something in the process but I haven't learnt anything on this forum yet. Apart from yourself and a couple of others the standard here is pretty dire and seems to consist of compulsive trolling and calling posters such intelligent epiphets as cum dumpster and saying phuck off to them.No boxing forum I have previously been on would tolerate these childish morons for more than a day.
I don't think I'll be here long.

I agree. I took about 12 years off of posting on any Boxing forum after being "Kid McCoy" on Sherdog for about 8 years. I just became bored with it. Fortunate to have a life, family, career, you know? Lol. Too much garbage here for sure. I'm fairly selective about who I'll interact with. I appreciate including me among the good ones sir.

[billeau2]

Omg. Was that a prime Wlad?

It was a pretty good version, enough so that it should at least be acknowledged when evaluating the two fighters (Fury and Vlad).

[billeau2]

It was so weird. Wlad looked like he turned old, but then looked like a hungry bull with Joshua two years later

The thing is: When a fighter looks a certain way and performs a certain way... The procuring cause often at least involves the opponent. While this seems common sense, people do occasionally seem to forget. Wlad's problem was he couldn't throw punches against Fury, because Fury feints so well. The feint would keep Vlad off balance for most of the fight.

[Willow The Wisp]

The thing is: When a fighter looks a certain way and performs a certain way... The procuring cause often at least involves the opponent. While this seems common sense, people do occasionally seem to forget. Wlad's problem was he couldn't throw punches against Fury, because Fury feints so well. The feint would keep Vlad off balance for most of the fight.

Exactly right.

[QueensburyRules]

It was a pretty good version, enough so that it should at least be acknowledged when evaluating the two fighters (Fury and Vlad).

- - Fight delayed with Wlad domestic problems mounting, ie post partum wife depression leaving their newborn unattended save the help Wlad could hire to nurse the baby inbetween training sessions.

Steroid cheat Blubber ducked the rematch that AJ filled with an epic run, and now Blubber been ducking AJ along with cohorts Deyonce and Whyte.

Be like U was born yesterday and have no nursery/grade school education.