Interesting things about Marcianos style

[billeau2]

How many of the current top ten are," just north of 220lbs? " This is the current Ring ranked Champ and top ten,and what they weighed for their last fights.
Fury 265lbs 6ft 9in 80lbs and 11 inches height advantage
Usyk 2211/4 6ft 3 in 35lbs and 5 inches advantage
Joshua 240lbs 6ft 6 in 55lbs and 8 inches advantage
Wilder238lbs 6ft 7in 53lbs and 9 inches advantage
Whyte 253lbs 6ft 4in 68lbs and6 inches advantage
Parker 251lbs 6ft 4 in 40lbs and 6inches advantage
Ruiz 256lbs 6ft 2in 71lbs and4inches advantage
Ortiz 243 3/4lbs 6ft 4in 58lbs and 6 inches advantage
Joyce 263 3/4lbs 6ft 6in 78lbs and8 inches advantage
Hrgovic246 3/4lbs 6ft 6in 71lbs and 8 inches advantage
Sanchez239 3/4lbs 6ft 4in 54lbs and 6inches advantage
I wont bother with the reaches its astronomical!

Just north of 220lbs?
No fighter was ever in better condition than Marciano,and no fighter relied more upon it ,if he came in at,"just north of 200lbs," he would be slower.and his stamina ,and endurance would suffer accordingly.
Tyson's average weight was 218lbs.he weighed 200lbs when he was 15! Holyfield was around 217lbs
Tyson would have an average of23lbs of natural muscle on Marciano and 3 inches of reach ,plus a hell of a lot of speed advantage. Holyfield 22lbs and Holyfield would have 4 inches of height and ten inches of reach!
Name a 5feet ten185lbs man who has seriously challenged for the title since Marciano? And after you have finished fruitlessly looking for him ask yourself why that is?
Ever fought an in shape guy who weighed 50lbs more than you ,was 6inches taller and out reached you by8 inches?
I have, it 's not a whole lot of fun!

Im talking champions... The actual size of the average heavyweight champions historically. Again, a top ten is a relative list and could reflect a trend... Show me a list of heavyweight champions where there is a straight rise in size from around the time of Louis to the present. Yes fighters right now may be bigger but it does not tell us that this makes them better... top ten of quality is a percent of quality, top ten of crap is a percent of crap and nothing more. Usyk by all accounts should be getting battered! lol.

I agree about Marciano thats my point! It may NOT BE GOOD that these Top Ten fighters are so big... it may reflect a lack of conditioning, etc. SO, it may be a choice for a fighter to come in lighter... we have not changed genetically man! Think it through. We have not "evolved" in any sense of Darwin's meaning. Guys fight at a very heavy point right now... even Fury fights best when he is light, not more than 260 and he is huge.

Regarding Tyson and Holly, yes, that is a more average weight for a heavyweight. There is more to size than just weight... Liston was huge, but did not weigh that much... His size was in his hands, shoulders, etc... Bill Fitz who weighed like 170 soaking wet, was a lightweight from the weight down and massive from the waist up. Ditto for a guy like Bauer who had huge shoulders and was consequently one of the hardest hitters....there is more to size than weight, thats the point.

Marciano chose to come in as light as possible as was what fighters trained to do those days... that was a preference. No fighter today would even attempt to get down to such a weight and it doesn't matter because small heavyweights are not the average anymore than are large champion fighters compared to the average size of a great heavyweight... Both are a deviation until such time that the average size of a great heavyweights exceeds 205-230 or so.

Ever fought a guy who was faster, more mobile and could pressure you because he had no extra weight? Thats no fun either. I fought martial arts. that was my baliwick... and the same applies. I did fight as the lighter guy against a demon (my teacher lol) and yeah its a disadvantage for sure. I also used mobility and that was its own advantage at times... its all relative.

[billeau2]

Why do you keep saying," if you've ever experienced getting hit etc? "I've told you I boxed.
You said, or one of the Marciano fan boys did ,that Marciano rarely got hit.That's total rubbish!
You mentioned two trainers.Turner and Duva. I told you some of Turners statements ,if you doubt the veracity of my remarks you can easily find them on You Tube.Do so and then come back and tell me if you agree with them or not?
Do you consider Lou Duva a trainer?
If you do tell me whom he ever trained? You stated lots of leading trainers rated Marciano number one.
Is that correct?
I asked you to name them? I pointed out Turner never rated Marciano number one, and I've never seen a sourced statement from Duva saying that either .Not that I consider him a trainer anyway.
This is how it works you./or I ,make a statement, somebody asks you to prove it with a primary sourced quote.you provide it and your point is proven, and they concede or,you do not provide it and your point is NOT proven .
Basically the onus is on you to prove your remarks ,not on me to disprove them! So now name some of these leading trainers who consider Marciano the best? It's that simple

Its a pretty important saw about physics and fighting... I doubt anyone said Marciano "rarely got hit." What a few people have told you, including myself, is that fighters that pressure and take a lot of incoming have a method where they are not getting caught flush by shots. If not they would not make it out of one fight!

Turner is on record with Duva in interviews as saying Marciano was the best. Lets not split hairs about "trainers" was Cus a trainer? what makes someone officially a trainer? Its a fact that many trainers cite Marciano as a unique talent, im not going to fckin do a research report for you on who those trainers are... read the sources from different eras. And the point was only to counter your thinking that IF a particular trainer holds a belief, all others have a similar opinion. So its like saying "Ali was hated by a trainer so he was no good" when its obvious historically that a lot of trainers thought highly of Ali. Well.. Marciano is often cited as one of the greatest champions historically... Look it up. Look at when they reconstructed a fight with Ali and Marciano how the opinions varied and even what Ali had to say (BTW) but wait... Ali isn't a trainer! oh well...

How this works is understanding there are different types of information and how it can be verified: anecdotal sources, like opinions, are not cited like facts. If I tell you that Marciano weighed 300 pounds when he fought Moore then asking me to "prove it" makes sense... Asking me to prove a known popular opinion in boxing circles is ridiculous. So no I won't be citing popular trainers that thought Marciano was the best because it is common knowledge that some in the boxing community hold this opinion and EVEN when I did you started to move the goal posts asking me if Lou Duva is a trainer... Learn about common assertions and the appropriate way to treat establishing them...

1. Turner on Marciano

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27DmRjUbqWA&ab_channel=TruSchoolSports

2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDaw2QFC1Qg&ab_channel=iliagvelesiani

[them_apples]

I think Rockys chin was above average, but his conditioning and heart were possibly the greatest of all time. Rocky goes down when you tag him hard, he never loses his legs though and he recovers quickly and well.

the other case is Rocky, not being very reflexive gets caught with shots he doesn’t see, but he’s smart with his style by either staying small and low on the outside or staying in too close on the inside and working. Its by these 2 strategies he “doesn’t” get hit much. Its not good defense in the sense that he slips shots and counters, its good defence in a ring IQ type of judgement. When Rocky works inside, his opponents are so crowded they can’t hit him very hard, just arm punches really.

he had a very logical approach to boxing and knew hos strengths and weaknesses. Clearly everyone including him in his camp knew he could punch. In fact, even while being continually written off his entire career and leading up to it, the one thing standard across the board was his ability to knock oponents unconscious at any round in the fight. He was doing this even as a 165 lb teenager.

[Ivich]

Of course! anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "bad man" lol. Come on

Is there anything in my post that is wrong or incorrect? Did Turner make those statements ?
Yes ?
No?
Was Duva the trainer?
Yes?
No?
Or manager and cheerleader?
Yes?
No?

Will one of you ,just for once answer my questions?
Because all you've done is make silly asides without addressing them so far!

[Ivich]

I think Rockys chin was above average, but his conditioning and heart were possibly the greatest of all time. Rocky goes down when you tag him hard, he never loses his legs though and he recovers quickly and well.

the other case is Rocky, not being very reflexive gets caught with shots he doesn’t see, but he’s smart with his style by either staying small and low on the outside or staying in too close on the inside and working. Its by these 2 strategies he “doesn’t” get hit much. Its not good defense in the sense that he slips shots and counters, its good defence in a ring IQ type of judgement. When Rocky works inside, his opponents are so crowded they can’t hit him very hard, just arm punches really.

he had a very logical approach to boxing and knew hos strengths and weaknesses. Clearly everyone including him in his camp knew he could punch. In fact, even while being continually written off his entire career and leading up to it, the one thing standard across the board was his ability to knock oponents unconscious at any round in the fight. He was doing this even as a 165 lb teenager.

He was a grinder.Like Frazier,but with two handed power.

[Ivich]

Its a pretty important saw about physics and fighting... I doubt anyone said Marciano "rarely got hit." What a few people have told you, including myself, is that fighters that pressure and take a lot of incoming have a method where they are not getting caught flush by shots. If not they would not make it out of one fight!

Turner is on record with Duva in interviews as saying Marciano was the best. Lets not split hairs about "trainers" was Cus a trainer? what makes someone officially a trainer? Its a fact that many trainers cite Marciano as a unique talent, im not going to fckin do a research report for you on who those trainers are... read the sources from different eras. And the point was only to counter your thinking that IF a particular trainer holds a belief, all others have a similar opinion. So its like saying "Ali was hated by a trainer so he was no good" when its obvious historically that a lot of trainers thought highly of Ali. Well.. Marciano is often cited as one of the greatest champions historically... Look it up. Look at when they reconstructed a fight with Ali and Marciano how the opinions varied and even what Ali had to say (BTW) but wait... Ali isn't a trainer! oh well...

How this works is understanding there are different types of information and how it can be verified: anecdotal sources, like opinions, are not cited like facts. If I tell you that Marciano weighed 300 pounds when he fought Moore then asking me to "prove it" makes sense... Asking me to prove a known popular opinion in boxing circles is ridiculous. So no I won't be citing popular trainers that thought Marciano was the best because it is common knowledge that some in the boxing community hold this opinion and EVEN when I did you started to move the goal posts asking me if Lou Duva is a trainer... Learn about common assertions and the appropriate way to treat establishing them...

1. Turner on Marciano

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27Dm...ruSchoolSports

2.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDaw...iliagvelesiani

This is your post and all Ive done is ask you to prove it with primary sources and you havent and you wont!
"
"And many leading trainers thought Marciano was the best ever."

You wont because they never said it!
And so you'll take the tiresomely predictable past of saying Im no going to to your research for you."
When we both know if you had these mythical quotes you would be posting them at the first opportunity! LOL!!!
What you aren't going to do is try and prove your statements,because you think
1.If you make them that is proof they are right. Well sorry that wont cut it !
2.You cant find quotes that don't exist!
You said many leading trainers consider him the best,I asked which ones, you produced one trainer and one manager that is not many?
Turner said Marciano was a good fighter he never said he was the greatest.he said ,"he was the hardest puncher I ever seen."

I've seen all Turners clips and I quoted them!
Do you believe Marciano could beat both Klits at the same time?
Do you believe as soon as Marciano lands on them its over?
Tooth Pick Turner who places himself at the centre of all the events.
Claims he was trained by Goldman and was in the camp for Rocky's fights.Look up when he began his brief boxing career and where he was based and look chronologially where Goldman and Marciano were at those times.

Read any biography of Marciano and point out Turners name in it.. Turner trained the Klits? Assistant trainer / bucket carrier for them . I think he is full of it.the" back in my day syndrome"

[Nash out]

I think too much is made of Marciano's KDs.

There were only two, one in the first round and one in the second. Both flash KD where he was in no danger of being stopped. (Regardless of what story the Old Mongoose likes to tell.)

Some fighters start cold and are susceptible to early round KDs.

They are not the definition of his chin and are over emphasized because there isn't much else to damn him for.

Joe Calzaghe was like that too, Willie. Nash out - boxing expert.

[Ivich]

I think Rockys chin was above average, but his conditioning and heart were possibly the greatest of all time. Rocky goes down when you tag him hard, he never loses his legs though and he recovers quickly and well.

the other case is Rocky, not being very reflexive gets caught with shots he doesn’t see, but he’s smart with his style by either staying small and low on the outside or staying in too close on the inside and working. Its by these 2 strategies he “doesn’t” get hit much. Its not good defense in the sense that he slips shots and counters, its good defence in a ring IQ type of judgement. When Rocky works inside, his opponents are so crowded they can’t hit him very hard, just arm punches really.

he had a very logical approach to boxing and knew hos strengths and weaknesses. Clearly everyone including him in his camp knew he could punch. In fact, even while being continually written off his entire career and leading up to it, the one thing standard across the board was his ability to knock oponents unconscious at any round in the fight. He was doing this even as a 165 lb teenager.

"I'm not kidding myself I know how I look in there."Marciano.

[Ivich]

Im talking champions... The actual size of the average heavyweight champions historically. Again, a top ten is a relative list and could reflect a trend... Show me a list of heavyweight champions where there is a straight rise in size from around the time of Louis to the present. Yes fighters right now may be bigger but it does not tell us that this makes them better... top ten of quality is a percent of quality, top ten of crap is a percent of crap and nothing more. Usyk by all accounts should be getting battered! lol.

I agree about Marciano thats my point! It may NOT BE GOOD that these Top Ten fighters are so big... it may reflect a lack of conditioning, etc. SO, it may be a choice for a fighter to come in lighter... we have not changed genetically man! Think it through. We have not "evolved" in any sense of Darwin's meaning. Guys fight at a very heavy point right now... even Fury fights best when he is light, not more than 260 and he is huge.

Regarding Tyson and Holly, yes, that is a more average weight for a heavyweight. There is more to size than just weight... Liston was huge, but did not weigh that much... His size was in his hands, shoulders, etc... Bill Fitz who weighed like 170 soaking wet, was a lightweight from the weight down and massive from the waist up. Ditto for a guy like Bauer who had huge shoulders and was consequently one of the hardest hitters....there is more to size than weight, thats the point.

Marciano chose to come in as light as possible as was what fighters trained to do those days... that was a preference. No fighter today would even attempt to get down to such a weight and it doesn't matter because small heavyweights are not the average anymore than are large champion fighters compared to the average size of a great heavyweight... Both are a deviation until such time that the average size of a great heavyweights exceeds 205-230 or so.

Ever fought a guy who was faster, more mobile and could pressure you because he had no extra weight? Thats no fun either. I fought martial arts. that was my baliwick... and the same applies. I did fight as the lighter guy against a demon (my teacher lol) and yeah its a disadvantage for sure. I also used mobility and that was its own advantage at times... its all relative.

Here is your post.
Point out where you say Champions?

"If you look in the section the average size of a heavyweight has been debated a lot. What you will find is that the size has varied very little from just north of 220. "

[billeau2]

Is there anything in my post that is wrong or incorrect? Did Turner make those statements ?
Yes ?
No?
Was Duva the trainer?
Yes?
No?
Or manager and cheerleader?
Yes?
No?

Will one of you ,just for once answer my questions?
Because all you've done is make silly asides without addressing them so far!

Your not asking questions your making qualifiying statements regarding what YOU consider should be the answer. Your not even being clever enough to make it a leading question... I don't agree with you. I don't think there is a job title of "trainer" with specific instructions that apply to pundits who work with fighters in the gym in all capacities and in the corner for fighters.

The best way to deal with an ignorant question is not to entertain it. But answer this: Who was the corner guy for Golata against Tyson? (for example)...that would be Duva...

Not going to waste time responding because we are going in circles.