Interesting things about Marcianos style

[QueensburyRules]

In a taped interview Moore stated his legs were gone by the time he fought Marciano. His take on Rocky was," he got to me by sheer bull dogging ruggedness."
I have no doubt he was in the best shape he could be, but he was not in his prime no fighter is at that age.

- - Moore's intelligence broke all the rule books. He remained a rated heavy for a good while after Rocky and held on to his LH title until he was too fat to make weight.

[Ivich]

That's fine but I'll hold you to it.

You can, but the irony is not lost on us if you do; on one hand you're saying a bunch of personal opinion. You don't think much of Rex, you don't think much of Bernie, etc. On the other hand you say but who calls Harry great doe. Pick a lane because if you don't that is your noose. Either you care more about your personal opinion or more about the opinion of boxing experts.

Let's be clear here, Harry Matthews didn't get a title elim by staring at walls and impressing no boxing writers ever. Nor did Rex Layne get his path to a title by being unimpressive and no one ever of any historical consequence ever wrote kindly about him. I said Rex was Ring's pick...but of allusion isn't it?

So, really, I'm game to play either way but you can't play both angles at once. They are counter intuitive. If you are the ultimate authority of your own opinion own that. If you're not and you rely on the opinion of experts, go with it. The two can't mix.




Sticking with credible historians, what credible historian tells the Nino story that way? What of Marciano's defenses are voluntary? So what are you driving at? Man made rate, failed to sustain rate, lost his title shot. It happens.




It is clearly not me who struggles with context. No Old-Gin, I am on point. You are all over the place. If I seem all over it's only because I've been asked to follow your lead. Complete with personal stories about how we each got into Marciano.


Bell's Life? Cute, now I'm a little annoyed. Someone explain to this mother ****er who the **** I am. Bell's Life? You're talking to the guy who got his respect by proving **** in Bell's Life is false. Old-Gin, your research is lazy and out of date. ****ing Bell's Life would have impressed me like 20 years ago. I did more than read Bell's Life. Next you'll tell me I ought to read some Nat Fleischer. Got a little Pierce Egan up your sleeve? Gonna hit me with Miles? Maybe do independent research before you brag about your ability to read old **** that was researched poorly? Got an old Fight Hype rolled up ready to go? Not in my league, son, gtfo with that bull****. Think you're special because you read Bell's Life....

Reynolds never beat anyone worth talking about,if you disagree name him?
I know why Mathews got a title shot but from the sounds of it you don't! If you think you do tell me?
Layne never got his path to a title because he never fought for it!
Now stop all the obfuscation and name the fighters that Mathews beat to entitle him to be called an ATG?
Nobody and I mean nobody,but you a self appointed "expert" who know less than one of my dogs about boxing GTF
You're a little annoyed lol Like I give a good **** what you are, you pompous, condescending, smug, ****.Go **** yourself you know nothing!

[billeau2]

Nothing to get just a pseudo platitude . Several posters here seem to be under the impression they are a great deal smarter than they actually are,and fittingly they are the very same ones in agreement with each other.A very strange Forum.

Sigh... its a conspiracy then? Someone makes the point about physical atttributes and you talk past them... and it is a bunch of posters who think they are smart... If you want to argue Marciano's competition then start a thread about it... No harm done.

[billeau2]

- - Moore's intelligence broke all the rule books. He remained a rated heavy for a good while after Rocky and held on to his LH title until he was too fat to make weight.

Kind of like Toney who idolized Moore!

[billeau2]

Moore was so confident of beating Rocky. He lived for that fight. i doubt he showed up anything but his best. Outside of it being at HW, it was his best. And at Heavyweight, we mean under 190 lbs (so Moore wasn't giving up that much size) because they are small heavyweights. Rocky did what he always does, once he's in close it's hopeless because of the advantages he has. It get's even worse the bigger they get.

I give Ali a good chance at beating Rocky cause of his foot speed in his prime, he could spin him and keep moving. Foreman because of his saddler style could push rocky preventing him from getting inside. Everyone else it's fair game. Rocky get's so low you can barely hit him, and once he's inside those long arms become a hinderance. Rocky is seriously underrated. Interesing that both Ali and Liston rate Marciano very highly/

a lot of trainers do... Don Turner and Lou Duva also.

[billeau2]

In a taped interview Moore stated his legs were gone by the time he fought Marciano. His take on Rocky was," he got to me by sheer bull dogging ruggedness."
I have no doubt he was in the best shape he could be, but he was not in his prime no fighter is at that age.imo.
"Rocky gets so low you can barely hit him?" Marciano against the relic of Joe Louis."I couldnt avoid his jabs ,I just had to take them"Marciano.Take a look at the photos of Marciano after his fights with Louis,Charles ,Walcott ,and Moore ,Simmons,Schkor, Lowry1,and read the blow by blow accounts and tell me they barely hit him ,then pay me the money for the laundering of my T Shirt which I've just spat my tea out all over! lol
Your argument that the bigger they are the worse it would be for fighters against Marciano is just absurd.

1. Many leading trainers and writers will tell you he was too small to compete in todays heavyweight era are they all wrong and you right?.
2.Marciano never fought a modern sized heavyweight of any class who was prime ,so your statement is just unfounded wishful supposition.
To show I'm not anti Rocky let me say I think he beats a lot of champions of the past champions such as;
Sullivan
Corbett
Fitzsimmons.Though Fitz handled Sharkey a short rugged swarmer convincingly twice.
Jeffries 50/50 match up.I go back and forth on this one.
Hart
Burns
Willard A protracted beat down imo
Tunney would be problematical would he corner him for the ko, or would he be outsped and outpointed I tentatively pick Rocky by late ko
Schmeling
Sharkey
Carnera
Baer
Braddock
Patterson
Johannson
Frazier really 50/50but I give Marciano the slightest of edges because of his two handed power.
L Spinks
M Spinks
So far that's 19 men who held the title pretty good going.
I think Johnson ties him into knots ,frustrates him and uppercuts him to take a decision.
Dempsey beats him because he was faster of foot,faster of hand, had better defence and dint cut so readily TKO
Prime Louis jabs his face into a mess as he did in their real fight and unleashes the right hand that he kept in its scabbard because of eroded reflexes when they did meet.TKO
Prime Walcott gives him hell as he did in their first fight by prime I mean the Walcott who gave Louis fits. Slight edge to Rocky
Fresher Charles gives him a hell of a fight as he did in their first encounter,slight edge to Rocky.
Liston.if Sonny could choose any style to look good against it would be against a short mini sized reach guy with average hand and foot speed who cut easily.6rds demolition with the referee rescuing brave Rocky.
Ali beats him up ,too much reach, too much speed, too great a chin, and fantastic footwork.Ali would be turning and turning him all night making hamburger out of his tender skin 10rds TKO
Holmes jabs Rocky to pieces and uppercuts him when he gets in close.One caveat Holmes was vulnerable to right hands so he might get dropped but if Shavers couldnt keep him down Rocky aint doing it! Late rds TKO for Larry
Foreman? Just watch the Kingston fight with Frazier.4/5 rds at most
Tyson ,he has everything Marciano had plus speed,size ,and a better defence .6rds KO
Holyfield matches Marciano for strength and durability. He takes a dec in a war.
Douglas ??? The Tokyo Douglas could one two Rocky all night to score a tko or points dec,or he might fold under the first big shot he gets caught with.
Moorer southpaw with a good jab and decent power I lean towards Rocky here.
Bowe beats Marciano imo he can out box or out brawl him and he was a very good inside fighter for such a big man.
Lewis ko's Marciano after softening up with jabs he either drops him with his uppercut ,or belts him out with his right hand.
Wlad smothers Marciano in close and picks him off on the outside jabbing him,hooking him and finally depositing him on the canvas with a hook or right cross,not a pretty fight to watch.
Fury easily handles Marciano who would look like a midget against him this would not be competitive imo Marciano is ATM the greater fighter ,but he is just too tiny to have a reasonable chance here.
Wilder likes tall guys he can T up his right on Marciano would be awkward for him,not least because Wilder can't fight inside and everything he throws is long.
However I have to expect Wilder to land flush on the little guy at some point and if Moore could make Rocky black out for a few seconds* Wilder would ko him.
* Source for this Marciano in a radio interview with Peter Wilson.
Joshua a good on top fighter with flaws,but just too big for Rocky, Joshua has a good jab and can box ,he also has excellent power too much for Rocky.
Ruiz .Unless Rocky can drag him into the later rounds where is superior conditioning will take over his hand speed could win this.
Usyk?The jury is still out,imo.
Three more wins for Rocky and a couple of undecided. Not too shabby.

If you think,[Ive no doubt about this,] that Im unduly harsh on Rocky here,ask yourself how many rounds ****ell,Lastarza.old Moore go with Liston ,Foreman,Lewis?.
Fighters are usually gracious to older champions,off camera its often a different story.
Can you provide the Liston quote please?

YOur hopelessly naive and have never been in a ring if you think fighters like Marciano, lamotta, or other pressure guys "got hit flush a lot." There is a science to not getting hit flush that enables a skilled fighter to avoid getting tagged flush.

And many leading trainers thought Marciano was the best ever... so? HIstorically most great trainers over the time of the start of the modern era thoutht dempsey the best, the Louis. The trainers that picked Dempsey often had one thing: they had actually been around to witness Dempsey, some even Johnson, all the way up to Tyson. I tend to trust those guys more because they actually saw the fighters, but that is just me.

Many heavyweights have not fought a fellow ATG at prime! Look it up! And many great fighters have Lost to a fellow atg when they were twilight...

Opinions are great, but get your context right lol

[Ivich]

a lot of trainers do... Don Turner and Lou Duva also.

Don Turner?
The guy who used to take the one dollar admission fee at the top of the stairs of the gym.
The guy who said cut men are a con and an unnecessary expense then couldn't stop Holyfield's cut from bleeding?
The guy who said Ward and Mayweather would be 6 round fighters back in my day?
The guy who said pad work is a waste of time?
The guy who said Marciano could beat both Klits on the same night at the same time?
The guy who said as soon as Marciano lands on either one the fights over?
That DonTurner?
Lou Duva was a manager and cheerleader and, imo a thorough nuisance in the corner,George Benton did the training and strategising and when he was talking Duva had enough sense to keep quiet.

[Ivich]

YOur hopelessly naive and have never been in a ring if you think fighters like Marciano, lamotta, or other pressure guys "got hit flush a lot." There is a science to not getting hit flush that enables a skilled fighter to avoid getting tagged flush.

And many leading trainers thought Marciano was the best ever... so? HIstorically most great trainers over the time of the start of the modern era thoutht dempsey the best, the Louis. The trainers that picked Dempsey often had one thing: they had actually been around to witness Dempsey, some even Johnson, all the way up to Tyson. I tend to trust those guys more because they actually saw the fighters, but that is just me.

Many heavyweights have not fought a fellow ATG at prime! Look it up! And many great fighters have Lost to a fellow atg when they were twilight...

Opinions are great, but get your context right lol

I boxed off an on for nearly twenty years never any good.
Nowhere in my post did I say Marciano got hit flush a lot,in fact I expressly stated in one post he wasn't hard to hit,but hard to hit with anything big.
Do you have reading comprehension difficulties?
Marciano never had the marvellous head movement of a Duran to take the steam off of punches but he didn't get hit flush with big shots that much.When he did, as against the 38 years old Walcott and the 39/41years old Moore he went down,but such was his conditioning that he got up ready to rumble.
Rocky did say he momentarily blacked out from Moore's short right hand,and in fact when he got up he went towards the ropes expecting a standing 8 count which was waived for title fights.
The referee for that fight got it wrong too he fleetingly forgot about the standing count exemption for title fights and moved towards Rocky to give him one realising his mistake he then waved them together.
Name three leading trainers who call Marciano the best ever?

Don't say Turner he didn't , he just said he was the hardest puncher.
Five of Rocky's opponents disagreed with him BTW Moore, ****ell ,Charles,Lastarza ,and Layne . Walcott said he hit harder with one punch than Joe Louis.
Don't say Duva either, he wasn't a trainer,he was a cheerleader.
Where did I say it was necessary to have fought a prime ATG?
I just pointed out Marciano never faced a prime class big /modern sized heavyweight,and he didn't. As a matter of fact he didn't face that many top level punchers either.Look it up.
"HIstorically most great trainers over the time of the start of the modern era thoutht dempsey the best, the Louis. The trainers that picked Dempsey often had one thing: they had actually been around to witness Dempsey, some even Johnson, all the way up to Tyson. I tend to trust those guys more because they actually saw the fighters, but that is just me." I agree with this.
At least you didn't call me a MF as another poster did,so hopefully , we are still on good terms?

[Ivich]

Sigh... its a conspiracy then? Someone makes the point about physical atttributes and you talk past them... and it is a bunch of posters who think they are smart... If you want to argue Marciano's competition then start a thread about it... No harm done.

No conspiracy but when someone says in all seriousness that the bigger an opponent Marciano faced the bigger would be the beating he would get I know they are just a fan boy and talking excrement. I didnt start bringing Marciano into this thread ,I just responded to others remarks.Perhaps they should have begun a new thread? If being five feet ten and 185lbs with a 68inch reach is an asset,where are the others of this stature that have won the title? Why aren't they ruling the roost now?
Surely they would mop the floor with these six feet five,six ,seven,eight ,nine inch,250/270lbs guys of today?
So why aren't they?lol
Why hasn't Freddie Roach,or Nacho Beristan hooked up with a guy of that stature utilised his petite size and turned him into a title challenger?

I keep asking questions of you guys ,but none of you ever answer any of them. Very Strange!

[GhostofDempsey]

Rocky's coach, Charley Goldman deserves much of the credit for his success. Another trainer may have tried to make Rocky into the fighter that he wasn't. Goldman taught him how to capitalize on his short-comings. Being a small HW, he trained him to fight from a crouch, throw combinations, and keep moving in his bob and weave defense. We can argue the merit of his wins all day, but he is one of the few HW champions in history who did more with less.