Interesting things about Marcianos style

[Ivich]

This is a bit a punctuation mess. I don't mean that as a personal criticism, I'm just saying it's a bit hard to follow you.

Well, let's be clear, most of my post doesn't care what you think. So I'm not real sure how to respond to your opinions other than to say Starship and Billue do not agree with everything and were still able to derive the point. Most here do not see Harry as a great, but if you're not mature enough to recognize others do and why then you're not ever going to get the point and you are making a poor attempt at understanding.

I didn't say Rex Layne was anything but the man in the way...I am confused. More so than with Harry because no one is saying or has said anything but Rex was a man Marciano had to beat, he was heavier than Marciano, younger than Marciano, and favored to Marciano. Again, you've totally missed the point making it kind of difficult to give you a proper response.

I gave a fairly detailed explanation as to why saying "But dey big doe" is not an answer for anything and you need to qualify it with what exactly they do with their size that has you believe they'd tie Rocky up faster than Charles and the like did. You going in on Wlad says quite, quite, quite a lot about your understanding of the physics of boxing. Not doing anything Wlad ever displayed in his career he wouldn't. Rocky is made to expose tracks and Wlad's a track fighter.

You ducked the mechanics of it all and basically said nuh-huh Wlad would do it......

Charles mileage....yes...only ever in Marciano's career is the only time one will ever read about two peers, one having a full career worth of experience over the other, like as if that was a deficit for him. Marciano is the only man in boxing history people spin a lack of experience and length of career into a unfair advantage in his favor. Only one, all the weights, period. I agree, Charles' experience over Marciano is indeed significant.

Did I say big men can't be faster or can't be faster and output the same energy at the same rate? Let me be clear, this is medical fact. It is impossible. There's no reason to try to argue it. If you're eyes tell you I am wrong you are suffer cognitive dissonance. It is fact, that's why most big men are slow. The ones who are not slow are able to be exposed to workrate. Period and end of, go crack a book, ask a doctor, whatever you need to not fight the existence of metabolic rate.

How many round did ****ell win? If ****ell weighed 300 pounds? What about the difference in ****ell's approach and Charles's approach? Nothing? Crickets? Haven't got a thought on that? I'm sorry if I sound like a **** at the moment but at this point I feel like you're chatting with yourself and I'm just here for it.

Was Reynolds younger than Marciano? Yes, yes he was. So what are you talking about?

Let me take a break from your post a second and hang on this a minute longer to explain something. Context, it matters.

If you say Rocky only fought old people, then I list guys younger than Marciano, your response should then have something to do with age. Why are we talking about Bernie as a talent or good win? That's rhetorical bud.

Continued or didn't - another missed point

You're a lot older than I am, I wouldn't even be born for another 20 years or so. I've mentioned cognitive dissonance already...so...don't really have much to say about how long you've kept the same opinion about the same fighter and his filmed fights.

Yes, super god Manny, like the only HW trainer anyone talks about, put up his style, fighters, and era over Marciano....cool story Old-Gin. I came to Marciano through a backwards path. My interest in boxing is only through my interest in history. It just so happens if one were to get bored with the history of politicians and geopolitical events from the perspective of politicians throughout history, one will find boxing is a good vehicle for a more common man perspective. There are other things most people do throughout history but things like playing cards or even the history of pants are far more broken up and less coherent than boxing history. Boxing history gives you a common man perspective more or less unbroken from the ancient eras through today where the only real dark and difficult to fill in histories lie were all hard to find European histories lie; in the Dark Ages. Literally. This is primary interest and the truth is the only reason I ever speak to mechanics in boxing at all, ever, is because I happen to be a prosthetist. It is my job to understand the physics of the human body. My interest however is the long story boxing tells and in that story Rocky Marciano most certainly stands out for his mechanics. If you do not see it that is not Marciano or Goldman's fault. Do you really think Charlie Goldman or Rocky Marciano invented the crouch? His phantom overhead? What the kids are calling "gazelle punch"? I mean, do you really believe any fighter on film actually invented any form of effective unarmed combat? The answer in boxing's case is a very clear no. A lot of what Marciano does goes back as far as Greece. He fights like a Spartan fights and that's no hyperbole. During the Bare Knuckle years Broughton became the golden star of what boxing should be because he did what Figg and his other pupils failed to do. Broughton looked to the Greeks for inspiration and through the influence of ancient Greece formed the core of modern boxing, including many of the techniques on display by Marciano. I'd be willing to bet if it were possible for me to corner Goldman in an interview about Marciano's crouch to overhead bit he'd give credit to Tommy Ryan at least because Tommy was known for the same thing. So, like or hate it, makes no difference, if you can't see what made Rocky Marciano special look again. He's the single most special HW to ever strap them on actually. Or to say that differently Rocky Marciano is the most successful HW to ever be so devoid of everything guys like Emmanuel Steward exalted as good boxing.

Nino got beat by Archie who didn't retire anytime soon after losing to Marciano nor fade for the top positions of the HW division anytime soon after losing to Marciano.

Everyone always thought Marciano would struggle more. Today they make excuses and even in your post all it really amounts your belief that if only more of what failed to spot him was applied. If you read the post you quoted last it does explain I do not see Rocky as an unbeatable god, just simply most misunderstand what made him good and so misunderstand how to beat him. I do not believe more of what failed would trouble Marciano any more, I think the opposite. More of what failed just gives Marciano more room for destruction. The way to beat Marciano is to do to Marciano what he does to everyone. Funny footwork that favors power at the drop of a dime. You can say Ezzard had a punch-out with Marciano, and by boxing standards that's true. He also lost and most of what Rock is doing is to favor power. Ezzard was larger and was out gunned by the smaller man. Do you believe in magic muscles or real physics? Marciano can't actually hit harder than Ezzard but he did. Because you don't box Marciano. You don't box him aggressively or defensively. The best any boxing standard has for Marciano's feet is square, fight him square. It's not the right thing to do in boxing but it'd give Rocky a hard time. Simple, don't do what everyone else did and failed. Actually look at him and say okay but what if he had to deal with that but from a bigger man. That's how the bigger guy beats Marciano. Marciano has no backfoot, not really. Not a boxing backfoot. His backfoot is an ancient pygmachia backfoot made for killing, no hyperbole. He's using a big man's style from an ancient period as a small man's style in a modern period and it's kind of funny how boxing still can't deal with that.

.
You described Mathews as an all time great light heavy I disagree with you,and I'd like anyone to post a list by any recognized historian that has his name on it?
Valdes got beat by Moore after he had been the number one contender in1953 and 1954 so Moore beating him when he did is totally irrelevant to the fact that Valdes did not get his deserved title shot.
Seventy five percent of your post has zero to do with the subject of the thread ,It's just a lot of cobbled together
faux adages.and it's simply oozing hyperbole and hero worship.
Charles was an inch and a half taller that makes him larger? He was 2 lbs the lighter man.
I said Marciano's best opponents were older men past their prime all true.I never once said they were his only opponents.
Don't try and preach to me about the LPR, I bought Bell's Life before you were born.If you don't know what Bells Life is it's the standard text book of bare knuckle history and currently fetches around $350 on the market.

Am I supposed to be impressed with your ostentatious, use of the Greek word Pygmachia? Well I'm not ,I dislike pretention.
You've no idea how the ancient guys fought ,that's just a lot of bumbf.
You say Wlad couldnt tie up Marciano? Wlad has 60lbs on him ,13 inches of reach, and 7 and a half inches in height.
You stating that tells me that not only are you a stranger to physics,but that you are afflicted by that most common complaint on boxing forums.Fan Boyism

You've spent ten minutes composing a fan letter to Rocky , well save it for somebody who might haye a passing interest in it.
Lets be clear, none of my post cares what you think

[billeau2]

.
Them Apples described Mathews as an all time great light heavy I disagree with him,and I'd like anyone to post a list by any recognized historian that has his name on it?
Valdes got beat by Moore after he had been the number one contender in1953 and 1954 so Moore beating him when he did is totally irrelevant to the fact that Valdes did not get his deserved title shot.
Seventy five percent of your post has zero to do with the subject of the thread ,It's just a lot of cobbled together
faux adages.and it's simply oozing hyperbole and hero worship.
Charles was an inch and a half taller that makes him larger? He was 2 lbs the lighter man.
I said Marciano's best opponents were older men past their prime all true.I never once said they were his only opponents.
Don't try and preach to me about the LPR, I bought Bell's Life before you were born.If you don't know what Bells Life is it's the standard text book of bare knuckle history and currently fetches around $350 on the market.

Am I supposed to be impressed with your ostentatious, use of the Greek word Pygmachia? Well I'm not ,I dislike pretention.
You've no idea how the ancient guys fought ,that's just a lot of bumbf.
You say Wlad couldnt tie up Marciano? Wlad has 60lbs on him ,13 inches of reach, and 7 and a half inches in height.
You stating that tells me that not only are you a stranger to physics,but that you are afflicted by that most common complaint on boxing forums.Fan Boyism

You've spent ten minutes composing a fan letter to Rocky , well save it for somebody who might haye a passing interest in it.
Lets be clear, none of my post cares what you think

Your basically counting angels on the head of a pin and yelling at people who think there are "4" instead of what you think the number should be.

[them_apples]

.
Them Apples described Mathews as an all time great light heavy I disagree with him,and I'd like anyone to post a list by any recognized historian that has his name on it?
Valdes got beat by Moore after he had been the number one contender in1953 and 1954 so Moore beating him when he did is totally irrelevant to the fact that Valdes did not get his deserved title shot.
Seventy five percent of your post has zero to do with the subject of the thread ,It's just a lot of cobbled together
faux adages.and it's simply oozing hyperbole and hero worship.
Charles was an inch and a half taller that makes him larger? He was 2 lbs the lighter man.
I said Marciano's best opponents were older men past their prime all true.I never once said they were his only opponents.
Don't try and preach to me about the LPR, I bought Bell's Life before you were born.If you don't know what Bells Life is it's the standard text book of bare knuckle history and currently fetches around $350 on the market.

Am I supposed to be impressed with your ostentatious, use of the Greek word Pygmachia? Well I'm not ,I dislike pretention.
You've no idea how the ancient guys fought ,that's just a lot of bumbf.
You say Wlad couldnt tie up Marciano? Wlad has 60lbs on him ,13 inches of reach, and 7 and a half inches in height.
You stating that tells me that not only are you a stranger to physics,but that you are afflicted by that most common complaint on boxing forums.Fan Boyism

You've spent ten minutes composing a fan letter to Rocky , well save it for somebody who might haye a passing interest in it.
Lets be clear, none of my post cares what you think

when did I

[them_apples]

This is a bit a punctuation mess. I don't mean that as a personal criticism, I'm just saying it's a bit hard to follow you.

Well, let's be clear, most of my post doesn't care what you think. So I'm not real sure how to respond to your opinions other than to say Starship and Billue do not agree with everything and were still able to derive the point. Most here do not see Harry as a great, but if you're not mature enough to recognize others do and why then you're not ever going to get the point and you are making a poor attempt at understanding.

I didn't say Rex Layne was anything but the man in the way...I am confused. More so than with Harry because no one is saying or has said anything but Rex was a man Marciano had to beat, he was heavier than Marciano, younger than Marciano, and favored to Marciano. Again, you've totally missed the point making it kind of difficult to give you a proper response.

I gave a fairly detailed explanation as to why saying "But dey big doe" is not an answer for anything and you need to qualify it with what exactly they do with their size that has you believe they'd tie Rocky up faster than Charles and the like did. You going in on Wlad says quite, quite, quite a lot about your understanding of the physics of boxing. Not doing anything Wlad ever displayed in his career he wouldn't. Rocky is made to expose tracks and Wlad's a track fighter.

You ducked the mechanics of it all and basically said nuh-huh Wlad would do it......

Charles mileage....yes...only ever in Marciano's career is the only time one will ever read about two peers, one having a full career worth of experience over the other, like as if that was a deficit for him. Marciano is the only man in boxing history people spin a lack of experience and length of career into a unfair advantage in his favor. Only one, all the weights, period. I agree, Charles' experience over Marciano is indeed significant.

Did I say big men can't be faster or can't be faster and output the same energy at the same rate? Let me be clear, this is medical fact. It is impossible. There's no reason to try to argue it. If you're eyes tell you I am wrong you are suffer cognitive dissonance. It is fact, that's why most big men are slow. The ones who are not slow are able to be exposed to workrate. Period and end of, go crack a book, ask a doctor, whatever you need to not fight the existence of metabolic rate.

How many round did ****ell win? If ****ell weighed 300 pounds? What about the difference in ****ell's approach and Charles's approach? Nothing? Crickets? Haven't got a thought on that? I'm sorry if I sound like a **** at the moment but at this point I feel like you're chatting with yourself and I'm just here for it.

Was Reynolds younger than Marciano? Yes, yes he was. So what are you talking about?

Let me take a break from your post a second and hang on this a minute longer to explain something. Context, it matters.

If you say Rocky only fought old people, then I list guys younger than Marciano, your response should then have something to do with age. Why are we talking about Bernie as a talent or good win? That's rhetorical bud.

Continued or didn't - another missed point

You're a lot older than I am, I wouldn't even be born for another 20 years or so. I've mentioned cognitive dissonance already...so...don't really have much to say about how long you've kept the same opinion about the same fighter and his filmed fights.

Yes, super god Manny, like the only HW trainer anyone talks about, put up his style, fighters, and era over Marciano....cool story Old-Gin. I came to Marciano through a backwards path. My interest in boxing is only through my interest in history. It just so happens if one were to get bored with the history of politicians and geopolitical events from the perspective of politicians throughout history, one will find boxing is a good vehicle for a more common man perspective. There are other things most people do throughout history but things like playing cards or even the history of pants are far more broken up and less coherent than boxing history. Boxing history gives you a common man perspective more or less unbroken from the ancient eras through today where the only real dark and difficult to fill in histories lie were all hard to find European histories lie; in the Dark Ages. Literally. This is primary interest and the truth is the only reason I ever speak to mechanics in boxing at all, ever, is because I happen to be a prosthetist. It is my job to understand the physics of the human body. My interest however is the long story boxing tells and in that story Rocky Marciano most certainly stands out for his mechanics. If you do not see it that is not Marciano or Goldman's fault. Do you really think Charlie Goldman or Rocky Marciano invented the crouch? His phantom overhead? What the kids are calling "gazelle punch"? I mean, do you really believe any fighter on film actually invented any form of effective unarmed combat? The answer in boxing's case is a very clear no. A lot of what Marciano does goes back as far as Greece. He fights like a Spartan fights and that's no hyperbole. During the Bare Knuckle years Broughton became the golden star of what boxing should be because he did what Figg and his other pupils failed to do. Broughton looked to the Greeks for inspiration and through the influence of ancient Greece formed the core of modern boxing, including many of the techniques on display by Marciano. I'd be willing to bet if it were possible for me to corner Goldman in an interview about Marciano's crouch to overhead bit he'd give credit to Tommy Ryan at least because Tommy was known for the same thing. So, like or hate it, makes no difference, if you can't see what made Rocky Marciano special look again. He's the single most special HW to ever strap them on actually. Or to say that differently Rocky Marciano is the most successful HW to ever be so devoid of everything guys like Emmanuel Steward exalted as good boxing.

Nino got beat by Archie who didn't retire anytime soon after losing to Marciano nor fade for the top positions of the HW division anytime soon after losing to Marciano.

Everyone always thought Marciano would struggle more. Today they make excuses and even in your post all it really amounts your belief that if only more of what failed to spot him was applied. If you read the post you quoted last it does explain I do not see Rocky as an unbeatable god, just simply most misunderstand what made him good and so misunderstand how to beat him. I do not believe more of what failed would trouble Marciano any more, I think the opposite. More of what failed just gives Marciano more room for destruction. The way to beat Marciano is to do to Marciano what he does to everyone. Funny footwork that favors power at the drop of a dime. You can say Ezzard had a punch-out with Marciano, and by boxing standards that's true. He also lost and most of what Rock is doing is to favor power. Ezzard was larger and was out gunned by the smaller man. Do you believe in magic muscles or real physics? Marciano can't actually hit harder than Ezzard but he did. Because you don't box Marciano. You don't box him aggressively or defensively. The best any boxing standard has for Marciano's feet is square, fight him square. It's not the right thing to do in boxing but it'd give Rocky a hard time. Simple, don't do what everyone else did and failed. Actually look at him and say okay but what if he had to deal with that but from a bigger man. That's how the bigger guy beats Marciano. Marciano has no backfoot, not really. Not a boxing backfoot. His backfoot is an ancient pygmachia backfoot made for killing, no hyperbole. He's using a big man's style from an ancient period as a small man's style in a modern period and it's kind of funny how boxing still can't deal with that.

Moore was so confident of beating Rocky. He lived for that fight. i doubt he showed up anything but his best. Outside of it being at HW, it was his best. And at Heavyweight, we mean under 190 lbs (so Moore wasn't giving up that much size) because they are small heavyweights. Rocky did what he always does, once he's in close it's hopeless because of the advantages he has. It get's even worse the bigger they get.

I give Ali a good chance at beating Rocky cause of his foot speed in his prime, he could spin him and keep moving. Foreman because of his saddler style could push rocky preventing him from getting inside. Everyone else it's fair game. Rocky get's so low you can barely hit him, and once he's inside those long arms become a hinderance. Rocky is seriously underrated. Interesing that both Ali and Liston rate Marciano very highly/

[Ivich]

Moore was so confident of beating Rocky. He lived for that fight. i doubt he showed up anything but his best. Outside of it being at HW, it was his best. And at Heavyweight, we mean under 190 lbs (so Moore wasn't giving up that much size) because they are small heavyweights. Rocky did what he always does, once he's in close it's hopeless because of the advantages he has. It get's even worse the bigger they get.

I give Ali a good chance at beating Rocky cause of his foot speed in his prime, he could spin him and keep moving. Foreman because of his saddler style could push rocky preventing him from getting inside. Everyone else it's fair game. Rocky get's so low you can barely hit him, and once he's inside those long arms become a hinderance. Rocky is seriously underrated. Interesing that both Ali and Liston rate Marciano very highly/

In a taped interview Moore stated his legs were gone by the time he fought Marciano. His take on Rocky was," he got to me by sheer bull dogging ruggedness."
I have no doubt he was in the best shape he could be, but he was not in his prime no fighter is at that age.imo.
"Rocky gets so low you can barely hit him?" Marciano against the relic of Joe Louis."I couldnt avoid his jabs ,I just had to take them"Marciano.
Take a look at the photos of Marciano after his fights with Louis,Charles ,Walcott ,and Moore ,Simmons,Schkor, Lowry1,and read the blow by blow accounts and tell me they barely hit him ,then pay me the money for the laundering of my T Shirt which I've just spat my tea out all over! lol
Your argument that the bigger they are the worse it would be for fighters against Marciano is just absurd.

1. Many leading trainers and writers will tell you he was too small to compete in todays heavyweight era are they all wrong and you right?.
2.Marciano never fought a modern sized heavyweight of any class who was prime ,so your statement is just unfounded wishful supposition.
To show I'm not anti Rocky let me say I think he beats a lot of champions of the past champions such as;
Sullivan
Corbett
Fitzsimmons.Though Fitz handled Sharkey a short rugged swarmer convincingly twice.
Jeffries 50/50 match up.I go back and forth on this one.
Hart
Burns
Willard A protracted beat down imo
Tunney would be problematical would he corner him for the ko, or would he be outsped and outpointed I tentatively pick Rocky by late ko
Schmeling
Sharkey
Carnera
Baer
Braddock
Patterson
Johannson
Frazier really 50/50, but I give Marciano the slightest of edges because of his two handed power.
L Spinks
M Spinks
So far that's 19 men who held the title pretty good going.
I think Johnson ties him into knots ,frustrates him and uppercuts him to take a decision.
Dempsey beats him because he was faster of foot,faster of hand, had better defence and didn't cut so readily TKO
Prime Louis jabs his face into a mess as he did in their real fight and unleashes the right hand that he kept in its scabbard because of eroded reflexes when they did meet.TKO
Prime Walcott gives him hell as he did in their first fight by prime I mean the Walcott who gave Louis fits. Slight edge to Rocky
Fresher Charles gives him a hell of a fight as he did in their first encounter,slight edge to Rocky.
Liston.if Sonny could choose any style to look good against it would be against a short mini sized reach guy with average hand and foot speed who cut easily.6rds demolition with the referee rescuing brave Rocky.
Ali beats him up ,too much reach, too much speed, too great a chin, and fantastic footwork.Ali would be turning and turning him all night ,making hamburger out of his tender skin 10rds TKO
Holmes jabs Rocky to pieces and uppercuts him when he gets in close.One caveat Holmes was vulnerable to right hands so he might get dropped but if Shavers could'nt keep him down Rocky aint doing it! Late rds TKO for Larry
Foreman? Just watch the Kingston fight with Frazier.4/5 rds at most
Tyson ,he has everything Marciano had plus speed,size ,and a better defence .6rds KO
Holyfield matches Marciano for strength and durability. He takes a dec in a war.
Douglas ??? The Tokyo Douglas could one two Rocky all night to score a tko or points dec,or he might fold under the first big shot he gets caught with.
Moorer southpaw with a good jab and decent power I lean towards Rocky here.
Bowe beats Marciano imo he can out box or out brawl him ,and he was a very good inside fighter for such a big man.
Lewis ko's Marciano after softening him up with jabs, he either drops him with his uppercut ,or belts him out with his right hand.
Wlad smothers Marciano in close and picks him off on the outside jabbing him,hooking him and finally depositing him on the canvas with a hook or right cross,not a pretty fight to watch.
Fury easily handles Marciano who would look like a midget against him this would not be competitive imo Marciano is ATM the greater fighter ,but he is just too tiny to have a reasonable chance here.
Wilder likes tall guys he can T up his right on Marciano would be awkward for him,not least because Wilder can't fight inside and everything he throws is long.
However I have to expect Wilder to land flush on the little guy at some point and if Moore could make Rocky black out for a few seconds* Wilder would ko him.
* Source for this Marciano in a radio interview with Peter Wilson.
Joshua a good on top fighter with flaws,but just too big for Rocky, Joshua has a good jab and can box ,he also has excellent power too much for Rocky.
Ruiz .Unless Rocky can drag him into the later rounds where is superior conditioning will take over his hand speed could win this.
Usyk?The jury is still out,imo.
Three more wins for Rocky and a couple of undecided. Not too shabby.

If you think,[I've no doubt about this,] that I'm unduly harsh on Rocky here,ask yourself how many rounds ****ell,Lastarza.old Moore go with Liston ,Foreman,Lewis?.
Fighters are usually gracious to older champions,off camera its often a different story.
Can you provide the Liston quote please?

[Ivich]

Your basically counting angels on the head of a pin and yelling at people who think there are "4" instead of what you think the number should be.

I'm yelling at no one, I'm responding to those who disagree with me as they are perfectly entitled to do.Why is their opinion any more valid than mine?

[Ivich]

when did I

My apologies it was Marchegiano.

"Secondly, Kid Matthews is the third all time great LHW."
No recognized boxing historian has Mathews ranked as an ATG and I've never seen him in any list of great light heavies.I will edit my earlier post, I can see having this quote attributed to you could cause embarrassment! lol.

[billeau2]

I'm yelling at no one, I'm responding to those who disagree with me as they are perfectly entitled to do.Why is their opinion any more valid than mine?

But you missed the point, thats kind of relevant here... thats the pun also if you get it.

[Marchegiano]

.
Them Apples described Mathews as an all time great light heavy I disagree with him,and I'd like anyone to post a list by any recognized historian that has his name on it?
Valdes got beat by Moore after he had been the number one contender in1953 and 1954 so Moore beating him when he did is totally irrelevant to the fact that Valdes did not get his deserved title shot.
Seventy five percent of your post has zero to do with the subject of the thread ,It's just a lot of cobbled together
faux adages.and it's simply oozing hyperbole and hero worship.
Charles was an inch and a half taller that makes him larger? He was 2 lbs the lighter man.
I said Marciano's best opponents were older men past their prime all true.I never once said they were his only opponents.
Don't try and preach to me about the LPR, I bought Bell's Life before you were born.If you don't know what Bells Life is it's the standard text book of bare knuckle history and currently fetches around $350 on the market.

Am I supposed to be impressed with your ostentatious, use of the Greek word Pygmachia? Well I'm not ,I dislike pretention.
You've no idea how the ancient guys fought ,that's just a lot of bumbf.
You say Wlad couldnt tie up Marciano? Wlad has 60lbs on him ,13 inches of reach, and 7 and a half inches in height.
You stating that tells me that not only are you a stranger to physics,but that you are afflicted by that most common complaint on boxing forums.Fan Boyism

You've spent ten minutes composing a fan letter to Rocky , well save it for somebody who might haye a passing interest in it.
Lets be clear, none of my post cares what you think

That's fine but I'll hold you to it.

You can, but the irony is not lost on us if you do; on one hand you're saying a bunch of personal opinion. You don't think much of Rex, you don't think much of Bernie, etc. On the other hand you say but who calls Harry great doe. Pick a lane because if you don't that is your noose. Either you care more about your personal opinion or more about the opinion of boxing experts.

Let's be clear here, Harry Matthews didn't get a title elim by staring at walls and impressing no boxing writers ever. Nor did Rex Layne get his path to a title by being unimpressive and no one ever of any historical consequence ever wrote kindly about him. I said Rex was Ring's pick...but of allusion isn't it?

So, really, I'm game to play either way but you can't play both angles at once. They are counter intuitive. If you are the ultimate authority of your own opinion own that. If you're not and you rely on the opinion of experts, go with it. The two can't mix.




Sticking with credible historians, what credible historian tells the Nino story that way? What of Marciano's defenses are voluntary? So what are you driving at? Man made rate, failed to sustain rate, lost his title shot. It happens.




It is clearly not me who struggles with context. No Old-Gin, I am on point. You are all over the place. If I seem all over it's only because I've been asked to follow your lead. Complete with personal stories about how we each got into Marciano.


Bell's Life? Cute, now I'm a little annoyed. Someone explain to this mother ****er who the **** I am. Bell's Life? You're talking to the guy who got his respect by proving **** in Bell's Life is false. Old-Gin, your research is lazy and out of date. ****ing Bell's Life would have impressed me like 20 years ago. I did more than read Bell's Life. Next you'll tell me I ought to read some Nat Fleischer. Got a little Pierce Egan up your sleeve? Gonna hit me with Miles? Maybe do independent research before you brag about your ability to read old **** that was researched poorly? Got an old Fight Hype rolled up ready to go? Not in my league, son, gtfo with that bull****. Think you're special because you read Bell's Life....

[Ivich]

But you missed the point, thats kind of relevant here... thats the pun also if you get it.

Nothing to get just a pseudo platitude . Several posters here seem to be under the impression they are a great deal smarter than they actually are,and fittingly they are the very same ones in agreement with each other.A very strange Forum.