Interesting things about Marcianos style

[Ivich]

- - Moore's intelligence broke all the rule books. He remained a rated heavy for a good while after Rocky and held on to his LH title until he was too fat to make weight.

Moore exited the heavyweight rankings after Patterson ko'd him,just a year after facing Marciano. He beat just one ranked heavyweight after Marciano ko'd him, Lavorante who was briefly ranked for upsetting Zora Folley.
Moore held onto his title until it began to be stripped away from him piece by piece,state by state for refusing to defend against Harold Johnson his number one again. Moore was making175lbs as late as Jun 61 when he fought Rinaldi but there was no money in the title and Johnson was a hardly a big draw,as Archie said," Harold couldn't draw his breath at the gate."

[Ivich]

Rocky's coach, Charley Goldman deserves much of the credit for his success. Another trainer may have tried to make Rocky into the fighter that he wasn't. Goldman taught him how to capitalize on his short-comings. Being a small HW, he trained him to fight from a crouch, throw combinations, and keep moving in his bob and weave defense. We can argue the merit of his wins all day, but he is one of the few HW champions in history who did more with less.

True, the classic over achiever.You can count the men under 200lbs who have a realistic chance with him on one hand. I'm pleased to say I liked and agreed with your post.

[them_apples]

In a taped interview Moore stated his legs were gone by the time he fought Marciano. His take on Rocky was," he got to me by sheer bull dogging ruggedness."
I have no doubt he was in the best shape he could be, but he was not in his prime no fighter is at that age.imo.
"Rocky gets so low you can barely hit him?" Marciano against the relic of Joe Louis."I couldnt avoid his jabs ,I just had to take them"Marciano.Take a look at the photos of Marciano after his fights with Louis,Charles ,Walcott ,and Moore ,Simmons,Schkor, Lowry1,and read the blow by blow accounts and tell me they barely hit him ,then pay me the money for the laundering of my T Shirt which I've just spat my tea out all over! lol
Your argument that the bigger they are the worse it would be for fighters against Marciano is just absurd.

1. Many leading trainers and writers will tell you he was too small to compete in todays heavyweight era are they all wrong and you right?.
2.Marciano never fought a modern sized heavyweight of any class who was prime ,so your statement is just unfounded wishful supposition.
To show I'm not anti Rocky let me say I think he beats a lot of champions of the past champions such as;
Sullivan
Corbett
Fitzsimmons.Though Fitz handled Sharkey a short rugged swarmer convincingly twice.
Jeffries 50/50 match up.I go back and forth on this one.
Hart
Burns
Willard A protracted beat down imo
Tunney would be problematical would he corner him for the ko, or would he be outsped and outpointed I tentatively pick Rocky by late ko
Schmeling
Sharkey
Carnera
Baer
Braddock
Patterson
Johannson
Frazier really 50/50but I give Marciano the slightest of edges because of his two handed power.
L Spinks
M Spinks
So far that's 19 men who held the title pretty good going.
I think Johnson ties him into knots ,frustrates him and uppercuts him to take a decision.
Dempsey beats him because he was faster of foot,faster of hand, had better defence and dint cut so readily TKO
Prime Louis jabs his face into a mess as he did in their real fight and unleashes the right hand that he kept in its scabbard because of eroded reflexes when they did meet.TKO
Prime Walcott gives him hell as he did in their first fight by prime I mean the Walcott who gave Louis fits. Slight edge to Rocky
Fresher Charles gives him a hell of a fight as he did in their first encounter,slight edge to Rocky.
Liston.if Sonny could choose any style to look good against it would be against a short mini sized reach guy with average hand and foot speed who cut easily.6rds demolition with the referee rescuing brave Rocky.
Ali beats him up ,too much reach, too much speed, too great a chin, and fantastic footwork.Ali would be turning and turning him all night making hamburger out of his tender skin 10rds TKO
Holmes jabs Rocky to pieces and uppercuts him when he gets in close.One caveat Holmes was vulnerable to right hands so he might get dropped but if Shavers couldnt keep him down Rocky aint doing it! Late rds TKO for Larry
Foreman? Just watch the Kingston fight with Frazier.4/5 rds at most
Tyson ,he has everything Marciano had plus speed,size ,and a better defence .6rds KO
Holyfield matches Marciano for strength and durability. He takes a dec in a war.
Douglas ??? The Tokyo Douglas could one two Rocky all night to score a tko or points dec,or he might fold under the first big shot he gets caught with.
Moorer southpaw with a good jab and decent power I lean towards Rocky here.
Bowe beats Marciano imo he can out box or out brawl him and he was a very good inside fighter for such a big man.
Lewis ko's Marciano after softening up with jabs he either drops him with his uppercut ,or belts him out with his right hand.
Wlad smothers Marciano in close and picks him off on the outside jabbing him,hooking him and finally depositing him on the canvas with a hook or right cross,not a pretty fight to watch.
Fury easily handles Marciano who would look like a midget against him this would not be competitive imo Marciano is ATM the greater fighter ,but he is just too tiny to have a reasonable chance here.
Wilder likes tall guys he can T up his right on Marciano would be awkward for him,not least because Wilder can't fight inside and everything he throws is long.
However I have to expect Wilder to land flush on the little guy at some point and if Moore could make Rocky black out for a few seconds* Wilder would ko him.
* Source for this Marciano in a radio interview with Peter Wilson.
Joshua a good on top fighter with flaws,but just too big for Rocky, Joshua has a good jab and can box ,he also has excellent power too much for Rocky.
Ruiz .Unless Rocky can drag him into the later rounds where is superior conditioning will take over his hand speed could win this.
Usyk?The jury is still out,imo.
Three more wins for Rocky and a couple of undecided. Not too shabby.

If you think,[Ive no doubt about this,] that Im unduly harsh on Rocky here,ask yourself how many rounds ****ell,Lastarza.old Moore go with Liston ,Foreman,Lewis?.
Fighters are usually gracious to older champions,off camera its often a different story.
Can you provide the Liston quote please?

yeah, most leading trainers today are pretty dumb in my opinion (ever see those in gym interviews at the mayweather gym? the only trainers with half a brain are the mayweathers themselves). I've been in a gym with an ammy coach with decent credentials (decent enough to be training a girl who was fighting on the olympic team for gold, and got silver) he didn't even know who Terry Norris was. Then he got mad when I was surprised he didn't know (LOL). So yeah in my experience, outside of a small few - most trainers of today know very little about boxing history.

Rocky did have good defense, Louis was hitting him with a jab because his jab is a very good jab. If you watch hat fight though, he still barely get's hit, and that's all that matters. the only shots he got hit with were punches without any steam on them because he's in so close - or the odd counter punch.

As for your predictions, I give rocky a chance vs anyone he's able to close the distance on. Some of Rockys best rounds were the championship rounds. I wouldn't say he beats all of them, but I would give him a shot in all of them. He's being written off badly. Badly because his skill set and style is being overlooked by most people. In ANY brawl the fight could turn in his favor, even if he touches down a few times. Includes vs Tyson, Frazier, Louis and Dempsey. If any of them trade with him and don't knock him out cold (which i suspect would be very hard to do) then it's gonna be 15 rounds in the trenches. I could see Tyson getting extremely frustrated and not fighting anything like everyone expects. Missing, holding and bothered more than not by Rocky's heavy blows.

lastly, you can't pick fights that he doesn't look good in and compare them to fights another fighter looks great in. Ali got dropped by Cooper and had fits with Doug Jones. Lost to Norton and Frazier in his comeback. Holmes almost lost to a shopworn Norton, struggled with a bunch of B class fighters and of course got doozied by Shavers.

Louis lost to schmeling and got dropped by Galento.

I have excuses for all of them as well, but my point is don't pick and choose your points to mask a bias. Some fights a champion isn't as motivated. Lennox got sparked by both Rahman and Mcall for example.


ALSO

Don't even bother listing who you think wins with any certainty if we go back to the 20's and before. The rules are literally different at this point - all you can do is speculate. open gloves, smaller. Grappling is a form of defense. Dirty fighting is the norm. We can debate it but don't use it as a point of defense. Who knows if johnson can beat rocky? is he allowed to grab and hold rocky? and hit him? thumb him? stand over him if he goes down?

[Ivich]

yeah, most leading trainers today are pretty dumb in my opinion (ever see those in gym interviews at the mayweather gym? the only trainers with half a brain are the mayweathers themselves). I've been in a gym with an ammy coach with decent credentials (decent enough to be training a girl who was fighting on the olympic team for gold, and got silver) he didn't even know who Terry Norris was. Then he got mad when I was surprised he didn't know (LOL). So yeah in my experience, outside of a small few - most trainers of today know very little about boxing history.

Rocky did have good defense, Louis was hitting him with a jab because his jab is a very good jab. If you watch hat fight though, he still barely get's hit, and that's all that matters. the only shots he got hit with were punches without any steam on them because he's in so close - or the odd counter punch.

As for your predictions, I give rocky a chance vs anyone he's able to close the distance on. Some of Rockys best rounds were the championship rounds. I wouldn't say he beats all of them, but I would give him a shot in all of them. He's being written off badly. Badly because his skill set and style is being overlooked by most people. In ANY brawl the fight could turn in his favor, even if he touches down a few times. Includes vs Tyson, Frazier, Louis and Dempsey. If any of them trade with him and don't knock him out cold (which i suspect would be very hard to do) then it's gonna be 15 rounds in the trenches. I could see Tyson getting extremely frustrated and not fighting anything like everyone expects. Missing, holding and bothered more than not by Rocky's heavy blows.

lastly, you can't pick fights that he doesn't look good in and compare them to fights another fighter looks great in. Ali got dropped by Cooper and had fits with Doug Jones. Lost to Norton and Frazier in his comeback. Holmes almost lost to a shopworn Norton, struggled with a bunch of B class fighters and of course got doozied by Shavers.

Louis lost to schmeling and got dropped by Galento.

I have excuses for all of them as well, but my point is don't pick and choose your points to mask a bias. Some fights a champion isn't as motivated. Lennox got sparked by both Rahman and Mcall for example.


ALSO

Don't even bother listing who you think wins with any certainty if we go back to the 20's and before. The rules are literally different at this point - all you can do is speculate. open gloves, smaller. Grappling is a form of defense. Dirty fighting is the norm. We can debate it but don't use it as a point of defense. Who knows if johnson can beat rocky? is he allowed to grab and hold rocky? and hit him? thumb him? stand over him if he goes down?

Louis was 37 and no longer the Brown Bomber he had no right hand and relied on the remnants of his jab which was no longer that quick piston it had been. I don't think Rocky had good defence ,but it was underated ,the problem with trying to tag him was he was always throwing ,in effect his offence was his defence. If you don't think Louis hit Marciano with regularity take a look at his face in the next morning photos. He has black eyes and cuts around them. I'm not writing Rocky off I think,THINK he beats the majority of champions,and the only guys under 200lbs I give a decent chance with him are Langford, Dempsey ,and perhaps Tunney.
I'm certain of nothing ,none of us are I'm just giving my thoughts and picks ,I was under the impression that that's what forums like this were for?
Dirty fighting ? Any of the other heavyweight champions dirtier than Rocky?
Is Rocky allowed to hit Johnson low ,butt him. hit him after the bell, whilst he was on the floor? Because he was against ****ell and never even warned once! I haven't picked any particular fights I just pointed out Rocky fell over on 2 fights after he missed punches.
I'm not biased against Marciano he was a great fighter and champion and, by all accounts a thoroughly decent guy.I say by all accounts because there is the Army court martial for mugging a gay in the UK and some loan sharking after he retired.
I liked his self effacing modesty and his refusal to bad mouth opponents,and if he was miserly with his dough,well nobody earned it in a more harder way.

[billeau2]

Don Turner?
The guy who used to take the one dollar admission fee at the top of the stairs of the gym.
The guy who said cut men are a con and an unnecessary expense then couldn't stop Holyfield's cut from bleeding?
The guy who said Ward and Mayweather would be 6 round fighters back in my day?
The guy who said pad work is a waste of time?
The guy who said Marciano could beat both Klits on the same night?
That DonTurner?
Lou Duva was a manager and cheerleader and, imo a thorough nuisance in the corner,George Benton did the training and strategising and when he was talking Duva had enough sense to keep quiet.

Of course! anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "bad man" lol. Come on

[billeau2]

I boxed off an on for nearly twenty years never any good.
Nowhere in my post did I say Marciano got hit flush a lot,in fact I expressly stated in one post he wasn't hard to hit,but hard to hit with anything big.
Do you have reading comprehension difficulties?
Marciano never had the marvellous head movement of a Duran to take the steam off of punches but he didn't get hit flush with big shots that much.When he did, as against the 38 years old Walcott and the 39/41years old Moore he went down,but such was his conditioning that he got up ready to rumble.
Rocky did say he momentarily blacked out from Moore's short right hand,and in fact when he got up he went towards the ropes expecting a standing 8 count which was waived for title fights.
The referee for that fight got it wrong too he fleetingly forgot about the standing count exemption for title fights and moved towards Rocky to give him one realising his mistake he then waved them together.
Name three leading trainers who call Marciano the best ever?

Don't say Turner he didn't , he just said he was the hardest puncher.
Five of Rocky's opponents disagreed with him BTW Moore, ****ell ,Charles,Lastarza ,and Layne . Walcott said he hit harder with one punch than Joe Louis.
Don't say Duva either, he wasn't a trainer,he was a cheerleader.
Where did I say it was necessary to have fought a prime ATG?
I just pointed out Marciano never faced a prime class big /modern sized heavyweight,and he didn't. As a matter of fact he didn't face that many top level punchers either.Look it up.
"HIstorically most great trainers over the time of the start of the modern era thoutht dempsey the best, the Louis. The trainers that picked Dempsey often had one thing: they had actually been around to witness Dempsey, some even Johnson, all the way up to Tyson. I tend to trust those guys more because they actually saw the fighters, but that is just me." I agree with this.
At least you didn't call me a MF as another poster did,so hopefully , we are still on good terms?

If you ever experienced getting hit you would realize the that one cannot get hit solid consistently with shots.... Its that simple. It may look that way but the devil in the details. You said he was marked up from getting hit, thus you implied it... your post not my reading comp bub!

I mentioned two trainers and you disparaged them. Goldman certainly thought Marciano had something.

[billeau2]

No conspiracy but when someone says in all seriousness that the bigger an opponent Marciano faced the bigger would be the beating he would get I know they are just a fan boy and talking excrement. I didnt start bringing Marciano into this thread ,I just responded to others remarks.Perhaps they should have begun a new thread? If being five feet ten and 185lbs with a 68inch reach is an asset,where are the others of this stature that have won the title? Why aren't they ruling the roost now?
Surely they would mop the floor with these six feet five,six ,seven,eight ,nine inch,250/270lbs guys of today?
So why aren't they?lol
Why hasn't Freddie Roach,or Nacho Beristan hooked up with a guy of that stature utilised his petite size and turned him into a title challenger?

I keep asking questions of you guys ,but none of you ever answer any of them. Very Strange!

If you look in the section the average size of a heavyweight has been debated a lot. What you will find is that the size has varied very little from just north of 220. That means a lot of things, among them, if guys like Marciano had trained like guys today he could have come into the ring at around just north of 200. And... a lot of these modern guys are too heavy and could come down considerably. Fighters like Tyson and Holyfield are examples of smaller heavyweights that have championship status. Those 250 plus guys can't move well and have no endurance. They are out of shape and could stand to come in a lot lighter.

[Ivich]

If you look in the section the average size of a heavyweight has been debated a lot. What you will find is that the size has varied very little from just north of 220. That means a lot of things, among them, if guys like Marciano had trained like guys today he could have come into the ring at around just north of 200. And... a lot of these modern guys are too heavy and could come down considerably. Fighters like Tyson and Holyfield are examples of smaller heavyweights that have championship status. Those 250 plus guys can't move well and have no endurance. They are out of shape and could stand to come in a lot lighter.

How many of the current top ten are," just north of 220lbs? " This is the current Ring ranked Champ and top ten,and what they weighed for their last fights.
Fury 265lbs 6ft 9in 80lbs and 11 inches height advantage
Usyk 2211/4 6ft 3 in 35lbs and 5 inches advantage
Joshua 240lbs 6ft 6 in 55lbs and 8 inches advantage
Wilder238lbs 6ft 7in 53lbs and 9 inches advantage
Whyte 253lbs 6ft 4in 68lbs and6 inches advantage
Parker 251lbs 6ft 4 in 40lbs and 6inches advantage
Ruiz 256lbs 6ft 2in 71lbs and4inches advantage
Ortiz 243 3/4lbs 6ft 4in 58lbs and 6 inches advantage
Joyce 263 3/4lbs 6ft 6in 78lbs and8 inches advantage
Hrgovic246 3/4lbs 6ft 6in 71lbs and 8 inches advantage
Sanchez239 3/4lbs 6ft 4in 54lbs and 6inches advantage
I wont bother with the reaches its astronomical!

Just north of 220lbs?
No fighter was ever in better condition than Marciano,and no fighter relied more upon it ,if he came in at,"just north of 200lbs," he would be slower.and his stamina ,and endurance would suffer accordingly.
Tyson's average weight was 218lbs.he weighed 200lbs when he was 15! Holyfield was around 217lbs
Tyson would have an average of23lbs of natural muscle on Marciano and 3 inches of reach ,plus a hell of a lot of speed advantage. Holyfield 22lbs and Holyfield would have 4 inches of height and ten inches of reach!
Name a 5feet ten185lbs man who has seriously challenged for the title since Marciano? And after you have finished fruitlessly looking for him ask yourself why that is?
Ever fought an in shape guy who weighed 50lbs more than you ,was 6inches taller and out reached you by8 inches?
I have, it 's not a whole lot of fun!

[Ivich]

If you ever experienced getting hit you would realize the that one cannot get hit solid consistently with shots.... Its that simple. It may look that way but the devil in the details. You said he was marked up from getting hit, thus you implied it... your post not my reading comp bub!

I mentioned two trainers and you disparaged them. Goldman certainly thought Marciano had something.

Why do you keep saying," if you've ever experienced getting hit etc? "I've told you I boxed.
You said, or one of the Marciano fan boys did ,that Marciano rarely got hit.That's total rubbish!
You mentioned two trainers.Turner and Duva. I told you some of Turners statements ,if you doubt the veracity of my remarks you can easily find them on You Tube.Do so and then come back and tell me if you agree with them or not?
Do you consider Lou Duva a trainer?
If you do tell me whom he ever trained? You stated lots of leading trainers rated Marciano number one.
Is that correct?
I asked you to name them? I pointed out Turner never rated Marciano number one, and I've never seen a sourced statement from Duva saying that either .Not that I consider him a trainer anyway.
This is how it works you./or I ,make a statement, somebody asks you to prove it with a primary sourced quote.you provide it and your point is proven, and they concede or,you do not provide it and your point is NOT proven .
Basically the onus is on you to prove your remarks ,not on me to disprove them! So now name some of these leading trainers who consider Marciano the best? It's that simple

[Willie Pep 229]

I think too much is made of Marciano's KDs.

There were only two, one in the first round and one in the second. Both flash KD where he was in no danger of being stopped. (Regardless of what story the Old Mongoose likes to tell.)

Some fighters start cold and are susceptible to early round KDs.

They are not the definition of his chin and are over emphasized because there isn't much else to damn him for.