Interesting things about Marcianos style

[QueensburyRules]

100 percent. Thats why its so irritating to see casuals spout off opinions. It was always the same thing too, first shot he lands and you can tell it surprises his oponents. Very concussive. They also start hesitating to throw because his stubby arms disguise his speed. Shorter distance travelled.

- - Cus is supposed to have trained Rocky briefly before getting run out of town by the mob. Dunno how valid that story is, but it's out there.

[them_apples]

But more than anything really its his short arms that give him a huge leverage advantage as well as inside advantage. He can unload both guns in close while everyone else is tangled up unable to punch back with anything effective. I dont think he ever “boxed” once in his career outside of his variety of hail mary style attacks, they all were methods for him to get inside and start unloading.

when hes out of range he just crouches as low as he can and bends at the waist. Simple but effective. Its very strategic. Hes never in the middle of the ring getting boxed or trying to box.

[mrbig1]

I won't compare Rocky vs Fury Lewis Tyson. I'm not saying he's the G.O.A.T. He ruled his era. This man should not be 49-0 with 43 KO's. I don't care if you fight 49 bums at least someone would beat this tiny HW. His small size did help him on the inside. He was non-stop punching machine. head body body head non- stop. You would have to kill him to make him stop. Looking at him you wouldn't say who is that. You would ask what is that.

[Marchegiano]

Moore ,Charles yes,who was the third great lhvy he beat I Y O? Size advantage ? Height yes? Weight no. Discounting the quarter pound here or there against Moore Lastarza etc Marciano was the heavier man in14 of his fights.Most importantly what he had was an age advantage.
How do you know Tyson and Frazier,"couldn't hang with him inside?"They would be the two best short swarmers he would ever fight. Modern sized heavies of any class would tie him up and lean on him.until the referee broke them up,many of the older guys he fought just succumbed to his nonstop attrition. He was a grinder.I still pick him to beat Frazier but I thinkTyson stops him.Too fast too strong .imo

I'm not taking it back to you because you've upset me in anyway. I feel you mentioned quite a bit that just went un-responded to, and well, that just won't do.

Asking questions is shorter than delivering answers. Don't peek this length and think rant, I'm being pleasant and ****.



It's well fine for you to say now a guy like Rex Layne is not worth consideration but Rex was the Ring pick for the next big thing and in Rocky's way.

I think it's rich people right now are bragging about Whyte being KO'd when Whyte's nothing but a contender but then when they talk about historical figures they exclusively focus on those who got retrospective respect. I get you didn't speak to anything current I just mention it to help me highlight why loads of people say Marciano was often the smaller man.

He's always the shortest reach, and his biggest, most important fights while career building he weighed less. Vingo, LaStarza 1, Layne, Louis, and Savold. The only contender he had to fight in order to get into title contention that he outweighed was Matthews.

So you can kick back and be like "but him didn't actually face many good ones" in some form of word play but it doesn't make the stance Marciano had to go through a larger division than he is untrue. He did.

It's like Mike's Green, Tillis, Berbick and Frazier wins. Had to fight them to get into position. Of them, I reckon Mike's only outweighed by Green.

Secondly, Kid Matthews is the third all time great LHW. I made a thread about greatest LHWs and while some folks did mention Kid being there that wasn't the biggest offense I made. Leaving Foster off was. What I learned in that thread is with the right names on a LHW list you can add any logical name to it because LHW is only difficult in 10s. If Harry is not a top ten ever, he is a top 20. You're going to have to dip into significantly less effective boxers to leave him off entirely. Folks say Louis is how Marciano got Walcott....it's sad.


Thirdly, The idea that size is how you tie Rocky Marciano up is just assumption. With no additions, like how a bigger man ought to use their size, there's no real analysis to his game. Rocky steps with his back foot, Rocky rebounds at a pivot, and reset on his back foot for another strike. It is not as simple as Ezzard Charles doesn't know how to grab or isn't strong enough to hold Marciano. There is a man who mugged him. Way more than the guys who in theory had the talent to. Ezzard and Walcott fought Rocky like how a boxer is meant to. Distance, angles, and when he gets close grab him. Size was not their problem. When grabbed Marciano was hardly able to actually bully either Ezzard or Joe. Ezzard burned the barn with him and Joe was only looking to pushoff and get back on his backfoot. What you have to do is change your style around a little, adjust to how he comes in and how he comes out. Being bigger just means you miss your opportunity by a wider margin because you have more space to have taken advantage of and your limbs are coming at him slower or if they're not then they're costing you more energy. There's no way for a big man to equal the speed of a smaller man and retain the energy output. More weight= more energy to match the same speed. Simple as. So if you're bigger and trying to Wlad him with basic hugs that everyone's been doing since BK you're in for a punch in the mouth and little else.


Bit like saying if Foreman was just bigger and stronger than Ali wouldn't have ridden them ropes as well. No man, you need an alt strategy, or, be made of magic and actually not only be a big man who moves like a small man but also retain energy like a small man. It's absolutely an impossibility. If you fight Marciano like you're Walcott you get beat like you're Walcott regardless of how big or small you are. You need a different means to catch.

Conversely, Don ****ell did mug Rocky much more than Rocky expected and the way he did it was by not doing what everyone else did. He fought Marciano square. He didn't try to keep or work an angle because he knew that just gives Rocky a way out. He brought Rocky into a punching match and lost it. If Don ****ell was bigger he may have beaten Marciano.


So when you say bigger, you can't just do that and just drop it. Bigger doesn't address how. At all. Plenty of bigger guys who have no clue what to do with Marciano. Klitschko is one. Tyson beat Wlad pivoting away while running away. One step, a step Marciano uses aggressively, quickly, and specifically to confuse guys exactly like Wlad. Bowe would be more difficult for Marciano. Holyfield would be hell for Marciano. Wlad's even bigger, but because his style feeds into rather than fights Marciano's there's no reason to believe Wlad would even throw many punches. He'd be another guy you see in grainy video who seems to just be standing there watching Rocky leap across the ring to get punched.

One has to qualify size with style.


Foruth, age? Louis? Walcott? Moore? Yes Marciano's whole entire claim to fame is based on 3 guys. No one else in the history of the HW division ever fought 3 guys older than them and got credit for it. Charles is a peer, they're the same generation, from memory Charles is one year older.... may as well be geriatric

****ell?
LaStarza?
Matthews?
Reynolds?
Layne?


So if those old guys retired before Rocky fought them then you'd have an even more dominant champion of his era and wouldn't be able to excuse it with age would you? It's not like there's a such thing as a young killer Marciano didn't fight. If they were younger than Moore and Walcott and Marciano didn't fight them they either didn't even make it to the top positions or did and got beaten there by old men. One of which would retain his place on top the division another decade but was totes near out the game when Marciano fought him.



Lastly, I just think this is interesting.

25 of Marciano's opponents would retire pretty shortly after Marciano. Not all immediately, but usually after facing Rocky you only have five fights or less left in your career. Archie Moore was not one of them. You can't excuse that with just but dey old doe. 25, 5 fights or less. It's literally unheard of period in all of boxing period. No other champion ever did that. Dude cut careers short, not old man careers.





You're fine to believe Mike beats Rocky, I don't hardly give a damn, but don't think you took a serious look at him.

[Nash out]

Rocky Marciano's fighting style has proved itself as well in more modern times. International Boxing Hall of fame - Class of 2011 - Rocky Balboa last fought in 2006 vs Mason Dixon, after a very long and incredible career, and Balboa, based his fighting style on Marciano. of course, Balboa was also inspired by Chuck Wepner, but Marciano was the fighting style he fought in.

With Balboa fighting that way in relatively recent times, and being a highly respected world champion, there is no reason why others can't fight in that style as well. It's a style that needs thudding power in both hands, and Marciano and Balboa both had that. Nash out.

[StarshipTrooper]

I'm not taking it back to you because you've upset me in anyway. I feel you mentioned quite a bit that just went un-responded to, and well, that just won't do.

Asking questions is shorter than delivering answers. Don't peek this length and think rant, I'm being pleasant and ****.



It's well fine for you to say now a guy like Rex Layne is not worth consideration but Rex was the Ring pick for the next big thing and in Rocky's way.

I think it's rich people right now are bragging about Whyte being KO'd when Whyte's nothing but a contender but then when they talk about historical figures they exclusively focus on those who got retrospective respect. I get you didn't speak to anything current I just mention it to help me highlight why loads of people say Marciano was often the smaller man.

He's always the shortest reach, and his biggest, most important fights while career building he weighed less. Vingo, LaStarza 1, Layne, Louis, and Savold. The only contender he had to fight in order to get into title contention that he outweighed was Matthews.

So you can kick back and be like "but him didn't actually face many good ones" in some form of word play but it doesn't make the stance Marciano had to go through a larger division than he is untrue. He did.

It's like Mike's Green, Tillis, Berbick and Frazier wins. Had to fight them to get into position. Of them, I reckon Mike's only outweighed by Green.

Secondly, Kid Matthews is the third all time great LHW. I made a thread about greatest LHWs and while some folks did mention Kid being there that wasn't the biggest offense I made. Leaving Foster off was. What I learned in that thread is with the right names on a LHW list you can add any logical name to it because LHW is only difficult in 10s. If Harry is not a top ten ever, he is a top 20. You're going to have to dip into significantly less effective boxers to leave him off entirely. Folks say Louis is how Marciano got Walcott....it's sad.


Thirdly, The idea that size is how you tie Rocky Marciano up is just assumption. With no additions, like how a bigger man ought to use their size, there's no real analysis to his game. Rocky steps with his back foot, Rocky rebounds at a pivot, and reset on his back foot for another strike. It is not as simple as Ezzard Charles doesn't know how to grab or isn't strong enough to hold Marciano. There is a man who mugged him. Way more than the guys who in theory had the talent to. Ezzard and Walcott fought Rocky like how a boxer is meant to. Distance, angles, and when he gets close grab him. Size was not their problem. When grabbed Marciano was hardly able to actually bully either Ezzard or Joe. Ezzard burned the barn with him and Joe was only looking to pushoff and get back on his backfoot. What you have to do is change your style around a little, adjust to how he comes in and how he comes out. Being bigger just means you miss your opportunity by a wider margin because you have more space to have taken advantage of and your limbs are coming at him slower or if they're not then they're costing you more energy. There's no way for a big man to equal the speed of a smaller man and retain the energy output. More weight= more energy to match the same speed. Simple as. So if you're bigger and trying to Wlad him with basic hugs that everyone's been doing since BK you're in for a punch in the mouth and little else.


Bit like saying if Foreman was just bigger and stronger than Ali wouldn't have ridden them ropes as well. No man, you need an alt strategy, or, be made of magic and actually not only be a big man who moves like a small man but also retain energy like a small man. It's absolutely an impossibility. If you fight Marciano like you're Walcott you get beat like you're Walcott regardless of how big or small you are. You need a different means to catch.

Conversely, Don ****ell did mug Rocky much more than Rocky expected and the way he did it was by not doing what everyone else did. He fought Marciano square. He didn't try to keep or work an angle because he knew that just gives Rocky a way out. He brought Rocky into a punching match and lost it. If Don ****ell was bigger he may have beaten Marciano.


So when you say bigger, you can't just do that and just drop it. Bigger doesn't address how. At all. Plenty of bigger guys who have no clue what to do with Marciano. Klitschko is one. Tyson beat Wlad pivoting away while running away. One step, a step Marciano uses aggressively, quickly, and specifically to confuse guys exactly like Wlad. Bowe would be more difficult for Marciano. Holyfield would be hell for Marciano. Wlad's even bigger, but because his style feeds into rather than fights Marciano's there's no reason to believe Wlad would even throw many punches. He'd be another guy you see in grainy video who seems to just be standing there watching Rocky leap across the ring to get punched.

One has to qualify size with style.


Foruth, age? Louis? Walcott? Moore? Yes Marciano's whole entire claim to fame is based on 3 guys. No one else in the history of the HW division ever fought 3 guys older than them and got credit for it. Charles is a peer, they're the same generation, from memory Charles is one year older.... may as well be geriatric

****ell?
LaStarza?
Matthews?
Reynolds?
Layne?


So if those old guys retired before Rocky fought them then you'd have an even more dominant champion of his era and wouldn't be able to excuse it with age would you? It's not like there's a such thing as a young killer Marciano didn't fight. If they were younger than Moore and Walcott and Marciano didn't fight them they either didn't even make it to the top positions or did and got beaten there by old men. One of which would retain his place on top the division another decade but was totes near out the game when Marciano fought him.



Lastly, I just think this is interesting.

25 of Marciano's opponents would retire pretty shortly after Marciano. Not all immediately, but usually after facing Rocky you only have five fights or less left in your career. Archie Moore was not one of them. You can't excuse that with just but dey old doe. 25, 5 fights or less. It's literally unheard of period in all of boxing period. No other champion ever did that. Dude cut careers short, not old man careers.





You're fine to believe Mike beats Rocky, I don't hardly give a damn, but don't think you took a serious look at him.

I'll give you this, I might not agree with you on a lot of shlt, but you ******** KNOW your boxing.

[Marchegiano]

I'll give you this, I might not agree with you on a lot of shlt, but you ******** KNOW your boxing.

Actually, it'd be fair for you to take pride in that. You, Bundana, Rockin' there's a few whose names elude me at the present moment too. Y'all were my inspiration. So what you do respect about me is really a reflection of your influence on me.

I had to know more about the stuff you guys used to argue about. I'm just following y'all's path. Hopefully I did my part and some day there'll be another poster I say damn son you know your **** to and he say back that's because you showed me the way.

I am of course grateful to be seen, and double from one who inspired me, but you should be very proud to know you do have that effect on others.

[StarshipTrooper]

Actually, it'd be fair for you to take pride in that. You, Bundana, Rockin' there's a few whose names elude me at the present moment too. Y'all were my inspiration. So what you do respect about me is really a reflection of your influence on me.

I had to know more about the stuff you guys used to argue about. I'm just following y'all's path. Hopefully I did my part and some day there'll be another poster I say damn son you know your **** to and he say back that's because you showed me the way.

I am of course grateful to be seen, and double from one who inspired me, but you should be very proud to know you do have that effect on others.

Them_Apples has probably the best technical knowledge by far of anyone on this sight that I've seen. JAB is really good at the technical stuff too. Thinking back, TheGreatA had the best knowledge of boxing history of anyone. I just haven't seen him in years. Too bad: He was a terrific poster. I'm pretty sure there's been a few others, but I stopped coming here for about three years and I KNOW I've forgotten a bunch of names.

[Ivich]

I'm not taking it back to you because you've upset me in anyway. I feel you mentioned quite a bit that just went un-responded to, and well, that just won't do.

Asking questions is shorter than delivering answers. Don't peek this length and think rant, I'm being pleasant and ****.



It's well fine for you to say now a guy like Rex Layne is not worth consideration but Rex was the Ring pick for the next big thing and in Rocky's way.

I think it's rich people right now are bragging about Whyte being KO'd when Whyte's nothing but a contender but then when they talk about historical figures they exclusively focus on those who got retrospective respect. I get you didn't speak to anything current I just mention it to help me highlight why loads of people say Marciano was often the smaller man.

He's always the shortest reach, and his biggest, most important fights while career building he weighed less. Vingo, LaStarza 1, Layne, Louis, and Savold. The only contender he had to fight in order to get into title contention that he outweighed was Matthews.

So you can kick back and be like "but him didn't actually face many good ones" in some form of word play but it doesn't make the stance Marciano had to go through a larger division than he is untrue. He did.

It's like Mike's Green, Tillis, Berbick and Frazier wins. Had to fight them to get into position. Of them, I reckon Mike's only outweighed by Green.

Secondly, Kid Matthews is the third all time great LHW. I made a thread about greatest LHWs and while some folks did mention Kid being there that wasn't the biggest offense I made. Leaving Foster off was. What I learned in that thread is with the right names on a LHW list you can add any logical name to it because LHW is only difficult in 10s. If Harry is not a top ten ever, he is a top 20. You're going to have to dip into significantly less effective boxers to leave him off entirely. Folks say Louis is how Marciano got Walcott....it's sad.


Thirdly, The idea that size is how you tie Rocky Marciano up is just assumption. With no additions, like how a bigger man ought to use their size, there's no real analysis to his game. Rocky steps with his back foot, Rocky rebounds at a pivot, and reset on his back foot for another strike. It is not as simple as Ezzard Charles doesn't know how to grab or isn't strong enough to hold Marciano. There is a man who mugged him. Way more than the guys who in theory had the talent to. Ezzard and Walcott fought Rocky like how a boxer is meant to. Distance, angles, and when he gets close grab him. Size was not their problem. When grabbed Marciano was hardly able to actually bully either Ezzard or Joe. Ezzard burned the barn with him and Joe was only looking to pushoff and get back on his backfoot. What you have to do is change your style around a little, adjust to how he comes in and how he comes out. Being bigger just means you miss your opportunity by a wider margin because you have more space to have taken advantage of and your limbs are coming at him slower or if they're not then they're costing you more energy. There's no way for a big man to equal the speed of a smaller man and retain the energy output. More weight= more energy to match the same speed. Simple as. So if you're bigger and trying to Wlad him with basic hugs that everyone's been doing since BK you're in for a punch in the mouth and little else.


Bit like saying if Foreman was just bigger and stronger than Ali wouldn't have ridden them ropes as well. No man, you need an alt strategy, or, be made of magic and actually not only be a big man who moves like a small man but also retain energy like a small man. It's absolutely an impossibility. If you fight Marciano like you're Walcott you get beat like you're Walcott regardless of how big or small you are. You need a different means to catch.

Conversely, Don ****ell did mug Rocky much more than Rocky expected and the way he did it was by not doing what everyone else did. He fought Marciano square. He didn't try to keep or work an angle because he knew that just gives Rocky a way out. He brought Rocky into a punching match and lost it. If Don ****ell was bigger he may have beaten Marciano.


So when you say bigger, you can't just do that and just drop it. Bigger doesn't address how. At all. Plenty of bigger guys who have no clue what to do with Marciano. Klitschko is one. Tyson beat Wlad pivoting away while running away. One step, a step Marciano uses aggressively, quickly, and specifically to confuse guys exactly like Wlad. Bowe would be more difficult for Marciano. Holyfield would be hell for Marciano. Wlad's even bigger, but because his style feeds into rather than fights Marciano's there's no reason to believe Wlad would even throw many punches. He'd be another guy you see in grainy video who seems to just be standing there watching Rocky leap across the ring to get punched.

One has to qualify size with style.


Foruth, age? Louis? Walcott? Moore? Yes Marciano's whole entire claim to fame is based on 3 guys. No one else in the history of the HW division ever fought 3 guys older than them and got credit for it. Charles is a peer, they're the same generation, from memory Charles is one year older.... may as well be geriatric

****ell?
LaStarza?
Matthews?
Reynolds?
Layne?


So if those old guys retired before Rocky fought them then you'd have an even more dominant champion of his era and wouldn't be able to excuse it with age would you? It's not like there's a such thing as a young killer Marciano didn't fight. If they were younger than Moore and Walcott and Marciano didn't fight them they either didn't even make it to the top positions or did and got beaten there by old men. One of which would retain his place on top the division another decade but was totes near out the game when Marciano fought him.



Lastly, I just think this is interesting.

25 of Marciano's opponents would retire pretty shortly after Marciano. Not all immediately, but usually after facing Rocky you only have five fights or less left in your career. Archie Moore was not one of them. You can't excuse that with just but dey old doe. 25, 5 fights or less. It's literally unheard of period in all of boxing period. No other champion ever did that. Dude cut careers short, not old man careers.





You're fine to believe Mike beats Rocky, I don't hardly give a damn, but don't think you took a serious look at him.

I dont consider Mathews a great fighter let alone an all time great one. I see nothing on his record that suggests he was. Rex Layne? I think he was damaged goods after the Marciano fight his training was sporadic and his weight fluctuated. Beating him was a good win for Rocky but the value of others beating him diminished afterwards imo.
Marciano needed to beat Louis to get that marquee name there is nothing sad about it or even controversial. The fact that he needed Joe's name on his record was why Louis could demand the lion's share if the gate.
Are you know stating that Foreman,and others of the more modern big heavies could not tie Marciano up? I think that is incorrect Wlad laid all over men bigger than Rocky and smothered their attacks,guys like Povetkin. Charles tried to punch with Rocky a stronger fresher,harder puncher ,******.He may have only been a year older but his mileage with nearly100 fights on his clock was significant.
Plenty of bigger men were faster than Marciano.
You say Wlad would not be able to tie him up I say he would.Wlad's basic problem has always been the same,when the other guy punches he stops punching.Marciano went through a division a few pounds heavier than himself,thats discounting the relic of Louis and fat ****ell who was a moderate fighter all his career.How many rounds did ****ell win against Rocky in that tiny16 foot ring?If ****ell had weighed 300lbs Marciano would still have beaten him.
****ell was a decent Euro level Lhvy whose claim for a heavyweight title shot was beating damaged goods Lastarza and Mathews.
Lastarza was a punchless well managed fighter who parlayed a close dec loss to Marciano when both were up and comers into a title, shot all the while avoiding the iron of the division which he himself admitted in a Ring interview.Two fights before challenging Marciano Rollie was floored and beaten by journeyman lhvy Rocky Jones. The list of dangerous contenders he missed is as long as your arm.
Mathews was a hyped up good, but not great fighter Jack Hurley his own manager said "you can't fight"and said he carefully matched him with guys that would suit his style down to a tea.Who did he beat, washed up Marshall having his last fight?
Pumped up middle Basora on his way out.On the way down Layne.
Bernie Reynolds? Good fringe contender.Who did he beat worth talking about?
Layne? A good win for Rocky.Goldman called it right,"he's soft in the belly Cesar couldn't take advantage but Rocky will."Goldman managed Cesar Brion.

Lots of guys retired after facing Marciano?
Yes they did either that or continued and were not much good afterwards.
Some weren't much to start with, and some were ready to pop their last balloon .
Had my first look at Rocky in the 60's when I bought a collection of his fights on super 8mm from Black Hawk, I think I'm up to speed with him.
I've been hearing all this mystical stuff about Marciano his clever defence ,unparralled stamina,clever foot work etc ,on forums for years
Emmanuel Steward said he was slow,had bad balance and would be too small for modern class heavies.
To be clear I think he was a great fighter and champion ,but he would struggle mightily today.
With the exception of Nino Valdes he beat who was around ,and that's all you can ask of any fighter in any era.

[The Old LefHook]

Actually, it'd be fair for you to take pride in that. You, Bundana, Rockin' there's a few whose names elude me at the present moment too. Y'all were my inspiration. So what you do respect about me is really a reflection of your influence on me.

I had to know more about the stuff you guys used to argue about. I'm just following y'all's path. Hopefully I did my part and some day there'll be another poster I say damn son you know your **** to and he say back that's because you showed me the way.

I am of course grateful to be seen, and double from one who inspired me, but you should be very proud to know you do have that effect on others.

What??? Giant laugh. Starship ****** had to be assigned a mentor he was so ignorant. Watch it, or you will be next to be assigned one.

Oh, and Nash Out is in need of some lauding from someone besides herself. Maybe you could build her up a little, since you are in the business of building up nobodies for nothing.