Wladimir Klitschko's "jab jab grab" in the firmament of all-time

[Willow The Wisp]

He doesn’t even sniff my top 20 heavyweights all-time.

So, what is your list, anyway? Don't work too hard. Let me; I'm retired....
OF COURSE.....All such lists are Opinions, and For Amusement Only, regardless of the author, or the forethought.
So the history of Boxing (Fighting that is distinct from ground wrestling where the hands are the primary striking apparatus and the legs are principally reserved for superior movement, positioning, balance and leverage) is broken into four main classifications, or historical eras. These are:
The Prehistoric (5,000 – 2,000 BC Mesolithic / Bronze age, Göbekli, Aegean, Sumeria, Vedic age India, etc.), The Ancient (2,000 BC – 900 AD Minoan Crete, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Aegean, Greek and Roman civilizations, etc.), Pre-Classical (900 AD – 1681 Russian, Norse, Frankish, Mongol, Venetian, Celtic, Germanic, Chinese, Moroccan, English), Classical (1681 – 1892 Siamese/Cambodian, Spanish, Joseon, Marseillaise, Danish, Prussian, English Prize ring era) and Modern (1892 – Present England, the United States of America, Fully International).
Regarding the Modern Heavyweights, 1892 – 2022, I like to split that 130 years in half, in deference to the fact that, unlike all the other limit-set weight divisions, Heavyweights tend to grow larger over the decades, making comparisons of old timers challenging for them, if not unfair.
So......Let's work up a quick list beginning with 1957, or 65 years ago, and call it the “MOST MODERN era....
My criteria is based on; surprise of surprises, my own dog-gone opinion; which; is worth no more or less than a belly button, because everybody's got one. But I've been addicted to this stuff for over a half a century, written on the subject, helped open the IBHOF and hung out allot with dammed near every scholar-historian you could think of, and most of them are dead now. But I'm not. Not yet; so be smart and benefit from my wisdom while I'm here to give it. Anyway; that would be the smart play here.
Nobody has to be smart. You can still find work these days without that. But at least respond with some intellect. Cuz essentially, you are what you speak (or write).
The top 125 “Most Modern era” Heavyweights 65 Years - 1957 – 2022
(* - Active fighter)

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Sonny Liston
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Larry Holmes
6. Mike Tyson
7. Wladamir Klitschko
8. Tyson Fury* (Moving upwards with each fight)
9. Joe Frazier
10. Deontay Wilder*
11. Anthony Joshua*
12. Evander Holyfield
13. Vitali Klitschko
14. Cleveland Williams
15. Ken Norton
16. Zora Folley
17. Rid**** Bowe
18. Jerry Quarry
19. Floyd Patterson
20. Ron Lyle
21. Ingemar Johansson
22. Eddie Machen
23. Tim Witherspoon
24. Teofilo Stevenson
25. Earnie Shavers
26. Ike Ibeabuchi
27. Gerry Cooney
28. Andy Ruiz Jr.*
29. Jimmy Ellis
30. Jimmy Young
31. Frank Bruno
32. David Tua
33. Luis Ortiz*
34. Tony Yoka*
35. Archie Moore
36. George Chuvalo
37. Alexander Povetkin
38. Michael Spinks
39. Nino Valdez
40. Bob Baker
41. Dillian Whyte*
42. Pinklon Thomas
43. Joe Joyce*
44. Gerrie Coetzee
45. Ernie Terrell
46. Michael Dokes
47. James Buster Douglas
48. Joe Bugner
49. Oliver McCall
50. Bob Satterfield
51. Mike Weaver
52. Shannon Briggs
53. Andrew Golota
54. Tommy Morrison
55. Henry Cooper
56. Oleksandr Usyk*
57. Mike DeJohn
58. Tony Tucker
59. James Bonecrusher Smith
60. Trevor Berbick
61. Hassim Rahman
62. Doug Jones
63. Oscar Bonavena
64. Carl The Truth Williams
65. Michael Moorer
66. John Tate
67. Donovan Razor Ruddock
68. Jarrell Big Baby Miller*
69. Chris Byrd
70. Joseph Parker*
71. Ray Mercer
72. Buster Mathis Sr.
73. David Haye
74. Bob Claeroux
75. Greg Page
76. Leotis Martin
77. Roy Harris
78. Renaldo Snipes
79. Mac Foster
80. Tony Tubbs
81. Tommy Hurricane Jackson
82. Pat McMurtry
83. Nikolay Valuev
84. Corrie Sanders
85. Ruslan Chagaev
86. Charles Martin*
87. Kubrat Pulev*
88. John Ruiz
89. Dereck Chisora*
90. Oleg Maskaev
91. Leon Spinks
92. Sultan Ibragimov
93. Chris Arreola*
94. Jameel McCline
95. Thad Spencer
96. Johann Duapas*
97. Filip Hrgović *
98. Karl Mildenburger
99. Daniel Dubois*
100. Duane Bobick
101. Harold Johnson
102. Bert Cooper
103. Bermane Stiverne*
104. Boone Kirkman
105. Al Blue Lewis
106. Willie Pastrano
107. Pete Rademacher
108. Buddy Turman
109. Santo Amonti
110. Joe Erskine
111. Gregorio Peralta
112. Tony Alongi
113. Michael Hunter Jr.*
114. Jose Luis Garcia
115. Michael Grant
116. Steffan Tangstad
117. Florida Al Jones
118. Oscar Rivas*
119. Dominic Breazeale*
120. Kallie Knoetze
121. Samuel Peter
122. Felix Savon
123. Lou Savaresse
124. Gerald Washington*
125. Chuck Wepner

[GhostofDempsey]

So, what is your list, anyway? Don't work too hard. Let me; I'm retired....
OF COURSE.....All such lists are Opinions, and For Amusement Only, regardless of the author, or the forethought.
So the history of Boxing (Fighting that is distinct from ground wrestling where the hands are the primary striking apparatus and the legs are principally reserved for superior movement, positioning, balance and leverage) is broken into four main classifications, or historical eras. These are:
The Prehistoric (5,000 – 2,000 BC Mesolithic / Bronze age, Göbekli, Aegean, Sumeria, Vedic age India, etc.), The Ancient (2,000 BC – 900 AD Minoan Crete, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Aegean, Greek and Roman civilizations, etc.), Pre-Classical (900 AD – 1681 Russian, Norse, Frankish, Mongol, Venetian, Celtic, Germanic, Chinese, Moroccan, English), Classical (1681 – 1892 Siamese/Cambodian, Spanish, Joseon, Marseillaise, Danish, Prussian, English Prize ring era) and Modern (1892 – Present England, the United States of America, Fully International).
Regarding the Modern Heavyweights, 1892 – 2022, I like to split that 130 years in half, in deference to the fact that, unlike all the other limit-set weight divisions, Heavyweights tend to grow larger over the decades, making comparisons of old timers challenging for them, if not unfair.
So......Let's work up a quick list beginning with 1957, or 65 years ago, and call it the “MOST MODERN era....
My criteria is based on; surprise of surprises, my own dog-gone opinion; which; is worth no more or less than a belly button, because everybody's got one. But I've been addicted to this stuff for over a half a century, written on the subject, helped open the IBHOF and hung out allot with dammed near every scholar-historian you could think of, and most of them are dead now. But I'm not. Not yet; so be smart and benefit from my wisdom while I'm here to give it. Anyway; that would be the smart play here.
Nobody has to be smart. You can still find work these days without that. But at least respond with some intellect. Cuz essentially, you are what you speak (or write).
The top 125 “Most Modern era” Heavyweights 65 Years - 1957 – 2022
(* - Active fighter)

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Sonny Liston
4. Lennox Lewis
5. Larry Holmes
6. Mike Tyson
7. Wladamir Klitschko
8. Tyson Fury* (Moving upwards with each fight)
9. Joe Frazier
10. Deontay Wilder*
11. Anthony Joshua*
12. Evander Holyfield
13. Vitali Klitschko
14. Cleveland Williams
15. Ken Norton
16. Zora Folley
17. Rid**** Bowe
18. Jerry Quarry
19. Floyd Patterson
20. Ron Lyle
21. Ingemar Johansson
22. Eddie Machen
23. Tim Witherspoon
24. Teofilo Stevenson
25. Earnie Shavers
26. Ike Ibeabuchi
27. Gerry Cooney
28. Andy Ruiz Jr.*
29. Jimmy Ellis
30. Jimmy Young
31. Frank Bruno
32. David Tua
33. Luis Ortiz*
34. Tony Yoka*
35. Archie Moore
36. George Chuvalo
37. Alexander Povetkin
38. Michael Spinks
39. Nino Valdez
40. Bob Baker
41. Dillian Whyte*
42. Pinklon Thomas
43. Joe Joyce*
44. Gerrie Coetzee
45. Ernie Terrell
46. Michael Dokes
47. James Buster Douglas
48. Joe Bugner
49. Oliver McCall
50. Bob Satterfield
51. Mike Weaver
52. Shannon Briggs
53. Andrew Golota
54. Tommy Morrison
55. Henry Cooper
56. Oleksandr Usyk*
57. Mike DeJohn
58. Tony Tucker
59. James Bonecrusher Smith
60. Trevor Berbick
61. Hassim Rahman
62. Doug Jones
63. Oscar Bonavena
64. Carl The Truth Williams
65. Michael Moorer
66. John Tate
67. Donovan Razor Ruddock
68. Jarrell Big Baby Miller*
69. Chris Byrd
70. Joseph Parker*
71. Ray Mercer
72. Buster Mathis Sr.
73. David Haye
74. Bob Claeroux
75. Greg Page
76. Leotis Martin
77. Roy Harris
78. Renaldo Snipes
79. Mac Foster
80. Tony Tubbs
81. Tommy Hurricane Jackson
82. Pat McMurtry
83. Nikolay Valuev
84. Corrie Sanders
85. Ruslan Chagaev
86. Charles Martin*
87. Kubrat Pulev*
88. John Ruiz
89. Dereck Chisora*
90. Oleg Maskaev
91. Leon Spinks
92. Sultan Ibragimov
93. Chris Arreola*
94. Jameel McCline
95. Thad Spencer
96. Johann Duapas*
97. Filip Hrgović *
98. Karl Mildenburger
99. Daniel Dubois*
100. Duane Bobick
101. Harold Johnson
102. Bert Cooper
103. Bermane Stiverne*
104. Boone Kirkman
105. Al Blue Lewis
106. Willie Pastrano
107. Pete Rademacher
108. Buddy Turman
109. Santo Amonti
110. Joe Erskine
111. Gregorio Peralta
112. Tony Alongi
113. Michael Hunter Jr.*
114. Jose Luis Garcia
115. Michael Grant
116. Steffan Tangstad
117. Florida Al Jones
118. Oscar Rivas*
119. Dominic Breazeale*
120. Kallie Knoetze
121. Samuel Peter
122. Felix Savon
123. Lou Savaresse
124. Gerald Washington*
125. Chuck Wepner

You basically moved the goal post by eliminating the “all-time” category and replacing it with HW’s since 1957. Even still, I don’t see how Wlad makes the top ten. I’m also puzzled at your rankings, they’re all over the place and I don’t know what you used as your own personal criteria, but how does Pastrano who was best at 175, and never a great LHW, make the list? No Etienne, Botha, Brock, or Cobb but here is a place for Chisora, Washington, and Savarese? Not they are much better, but still.

I’m at a loss as to why Wilder is ranked so high or how Whyte is ranked above Dokes, Ruiz, Ruiz, Page, Mercer, Byrd, Golota, and several others?

[QueensburyRules]

So, what is your list, anyway? Don't work too hard. Let me; I'm retired....
OF COURSE.....All such lists are Opinions, and For Amusement Only, regardless of the author, or the forethought.
So the history of Boxing (Fighting that is distinct from ground wrestling where the hands are the primary striking apparatus and the legs are principally reserved for superior movement, positioning, balance and leverage) is broken into four main classifications, or historical eras. These are:
The Prehistoric (5,000 – 2,000 BC Mesolithic / Bronze age, Göbekli, Aegean, Sumeria, Vedic age India, etc.), The Ancient (2,000 BC – 900 AD Minoan Crete, Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Aegean, Greek and Roman civilizations, etc.), Pre-Classical (900 AD – 1681 Russian, Norse, Frankish, Mongol, Venetian, Celtic, Germanic, Chinese, Moroccan, English), Classical (1681 – 1892 Siamese/Cambodian, Spanish, Joseon, Marseillaise, Danish, Prussian, English Prize ring era) and Modern (1892 – Present England, the United States of America, Fully International).
Regarding the Modern Heavyweights, 1892 – 2022, I like to split that 130 years in half, in deference to the fact that, unlike all the other limit-set weight divisions, Heavyweights tend to grow larger over the decades, making comparisons of old timers challenging for them, if not unfair.
So......Let's work up a quick list beginning with 1957, or 65 years ago, and call it the “MOST MODERN era....
My criteria is based on; surprise of surprises, my own dog-gone opinion; which; is worth no more or less than a belly button, because everybody's got one. But I've been addicted to this stuff for over a half a century, written on the subject, helped open the IBHOF and hung out allot with dammed near every scholar-historian you could think of, and most of them are dead now. But I'm not. Not yet; so be smart and benefit from my wisdom while I'm here to give it. Anyway; that would be the smart play here.
Nobody has to be smart. You can still find work these days without that. But at least respond with some intellect. Cuz essentially, you are what you speak (or write).
The top 125 “Most Modern era” Heavyweights 65 Years - 1957 – 2022
(* - Active fighter)

- - Modern Boxing two dimensional thinkers tend towards two dimensional linear lists without specifying criteria. My more expansive response is:

Two distinct criteria; that of the overall excellence of record, and that of looking at heavies who had the biggest impact on boxing and the world in which they lived, both leavened with the unique opportunities and obstacles of their eras.

The first list is the boxing and world impact, both of which have the biggest influence in boxing.

1.Joe Louis…It don’t get any bigger worldwide than the rematch with Max Schmeling on the eve of WW2 in a bout that was relayed worldwide via the nascent radio of the era. Joe was the first black American heavyweight the overwhelming white majority could rally around and set the stage for the post WW2 integration of Major League Baseball and the US armed forces and subsequent civil rights movements. Need I add that Joe was also a major inspiration in the development of Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King as young boys avidly listening to his fights on the radio?



2.The Klitschko brothers…Their collective was 109-7, 94 KO and never once took a ten count that averages out to 55-4, 47 KO. Between them they moved the heavyweight division to Germany to knock Don King out of the equation while ushering in the continuing saga of European dominance of the heavier boxing divisions.

3.Bob Fitzsimmons…A rare trifecta of being part the first proposed full length feature cinematographic project by Thomas Edison’s Black Maria Studio, the title fight against James J Corbett to be held in Dallas, Texas, circa 1895 that was cancelled when the Texas Legislature made prize fighting illegal. The always overly dramatic Corbett publicly forfeited his title that was then fought over near Langtry, Texas by Fitz and Peter Maher.

Maher had previously claimed the forfeited Corbett title in November of 1895 against Steve O’Donnell with a 1st rd KO. Fitz and Maher were situated in 1896 on a spit island in the middle of the Rio Grande(Bravo) for the first failed full length feature cinematographic project by Thomas Edison. Tragically the crew could not not get properly set up in misty conditions before Maher became his own victim of a first round KO as his claims to the title transferred to Ruby Robert. Whatever may have been filmed has thus far been lost in time though hope springs eternal that it may possibly turn up.

The 1897 Corbett vs Fitz fight held in Reno, Nevada, the first ever successful full length feature film that additionally became the first ever national and international blockbuster that established art of cinematography permanently in the world. Subsequently James J Jeffries helped develop the art of cinematography further when he knocked out Fitz to claim the title though sadly almost all of the Jeffries film has be either lost or waiting to be rediscovered. The first non boxing blockbuster featuring actors was The Great Train Robbery 6 years later in 1903, a film of only 10 minutes for perspective that introduced the first ever silent screen star to the public, Bronco Billy.

4.John L Sullivan, 39-1-1, 33 KO. John L was the first and only unified Bareknucks and Gloved Queensbury champ and the first American to consolidate titles that had previously belonged exclusively to the British. John L first set up the worldwide heavyweight stage in a growing age of literacy and media expansion, where they remained save for a nanoblip by Ingemar Johansson for a century before Lennox Lewis upset the American monopoly.

5A.Jack Dempsey, 55-6-8, 45 KO. Established the modern spectacle of boxing that is seldom matched and never exceeded.

5B.Muhammad Ali, 56-5, 37 KO. Perhaps the 2nd best known fighter in the world only exceeded by the modern phenomenon of Manny Pacquiao and his 3 billion Asian population base enhanced with modern communication broadcasting.

5C.Mike Tyson, 50-6, 44 KO. Youngest ever champ who cleaned up the derelict post Ali era to unify the titles and temporarily wipe Don King’s slate clean. He had already held the record for career purse earnings before King and Robin Givens ever sunk their claws into him.

Greatest Records

1.Joe Louis, 66-3, 52 KO. Nominally his 26(27)-1 heavyweight title records were exceeded, but, overall never surpassed. The 27th was Lee Savold who claimed both the white heavy title and the BBBC heavyweight title that Joe is seldom credited with after knocking him out.

2.The Klitschko brothers, 109-7, 94 KO and bukos title fights with nary a 10 count between them. Collectively they smashed the Louis record, and though individually Wlad exceeded his total career heavyweight title fights, he fell short of the overall Louis record. They may well hold the heavyweight record of the most winning rounds scored as overmatched opponents seldom penetrated their defense. More importantly they put down Don King for years of 10 counts and transferred heavyweight title fights to Germany-HERESY to be sure!

3.Rocky, 49-0, 43 KO. The most iconic record in all of boxing. My next door neighbor who knows shinola about boxing can recite Rocky’s record like a mantra.

4.Sam Langford, 178-29-39, 126 KO. Mere numerical records FAIL to capture Sam’s greatness, not the least being the sheer number of fights he had against HOF fighters that greatly exceed all such fights by other fighters.

5.Anthony Joshua, 24-2, 22 KO. More than half his career in title fights to become unified belt holder. No heavyweight as yet has done as much with such a limited number of fights. I always like to include a current great in rankings just to PO dusty mossbacks not understanding that all the greats in the making back when were moderns in their day as Josh is.

Adding up the two lists with fighters not appearing on both lists being assigned a place value of 6 to keep my rankings on keel, That’s Louis 1+1 with 2 pts, the Ks 2+2 with 4, Fitz 3+6 with 9, Rocky 3+6 with 9, John L 4+6 with 10, Dempsey, Ali, and Tyson, all 5+6 with 11 each, Josh 5+6 with 11, Sam 4+6 with 10.

Divided by 2 to get the final point rankings in numerical order: Louis 1, Ks 2, Fitz 4.5, Rocky 4.5, John L 5, Sam 5, and Dempsey, Ali, Tyson, and Josh 5.5

Translated into standard numerical ranking order: Louis 1, Ks 2, Fitz 3A, Rocky 3B, John L 5A and Sam 5B, Dempsey, Ali, Tyson, and Joshua 7A, 7B, 7C, 7 D.

So technically that 11 heavyweights if we split the Klitschko brothers, but they were such a dominating force in boxing that they really have to be consolidated as one unit to understand their impact...you're welcome.

[Willie Pep 229]

Whom of note did the brothers Klitschko defeat?

[Tatabanya]

Wladimir Klitschko is a modern-age Primo Carnera. And this is probably an offense to the latter.

[QueensburyRules]

Whom of note did the brothers Klitschko defeat?

- - Emasculated Americans been singing in soprano for the entirety of the 3rd millennium thus far, the Bass Profundo Fax of Life.

[The Old LefHook]

Is this little rant due to my avatar? If so then maybe you should look at it a little more closely....

He is squalling about me. I am taking it easy on him. But I don't polish his glans like the others. I have told my words not to be furious ping pong paddles striking his face.

[Willie Pep 229]

- - Emasculated Americans been singing in soprano for the entirety of the 3rd millennium thus far, the Bass Profundo Fax of Life.

Yea but even eunuchs have names.

[QueensburyRules]

Yea but even eunuchs have names.

- - My Bad- Tony Thompson!

Beats 3 of 4 heavy champs in history, the biggest scalps being Bowe, Lewis and Vander.

[Willie Pep 229]

- - My Bad- Tony Thompson!

Beats 3 of 4 heavy champs in history, the biggest scalps being Bowe, Lewis and Vander.

Ok that flew right over my head.

How about a serious answer?

I can easily look it up on Boxrec, but you put them number two on both your lists.

At what moment did you stand up in front of your TV and exclaim, "that's a great fighter." ?

When I saw Duran in Montreal I knew I was watching a great fighter; Frazier putting Ali down, Leonard coming back against Hearns, ETC.

Tell me what fight brought you to that conclusion about the Ks, that you put these two at number two on both list.

I'm not trying to break your balls, but damn I just can't remember thinking 'greatness' when watching them fight. Certainly not to be the second best ever.