Wladimir Klitschko's "jab jab grab" in the firmament of all-time

[Willow The Wisp]

- - Emasculated Americans been singing in soprano for the entirety of the 3rd millennium thus far, the Bass Profundo Fax of Life.

Lol, that's funny. But...wait till you get a load of the Chinese running the joint.

[JAB5239]

Ok that flew right over my head.

How about a serious answer?

I can easily look it up on Boxrec, but you put them number two on both your lists.

At what moment did you stand up in front of your TV and exclaim, "that's a great fighter." ?

When I saw Duran in Montreal I knew I was watching a great fighter; Frazier putting Ali down, Leonard coming back against Hearns, ETC.

Tell me what fight brought you to that conclusion about the Ks, that you put these two at number two on both list.

I'm not trying to break your balls, but damn I just can't remember thinking 'greatness' when watching them fight. Certainly not to be the second best ever.

Had to be Wlad vs Povetkin and Vits vs Chisora. All time great barnburners they were.

[Willow The Wisp]

He is squalling about me. I am taking it easy on him. But I don't polish his glans like the others. I have told my words not to be furious ping pong paddles striking his face.

Not sure I need to jump into these little squabble dialogs I see here. But, against my better judgment....what do you mean? Putting Klitschko in historical context for the aid of any knowlege lightweights who think it matters that they "don't like him" wasn't inspired by somebody's avatar or by whatever hubris you're on about. It was just a little history class. Honest. But, you have as much right to an opinion as I do. Let 'er rip.

[Willow The Wisp]

Ok that flew right over my head.

How about a serious answer?

I can easily look it up on Boxrec, but you put them number two on both your lists.

At what moment did you stand up in front of your TV and exclaim, "that's a great fighter." ?

When I saw Duran in Montreal I knew I was watching a great fighter; Frazier putting Ali down, Leonard coming back against Hearns, ETC.

Tell me what fight brought you to that conclusion about the Ks, that you put these two at number two on both list.

I'm not trying to break your balls, but damn I just can't remember thinking 'greatness' when watching them fight. Certainly not to be the second best ever.

I agree. Wasn't it really more attrition with Wladimir? Being head and shoulders above everyone else on the planet who regarded themselves as a tough guy, who could use an extra 50 mil., who had the balls to go for it; for a pretty long stretch? Isn't that just as real as one or two public displays of undeniable greatness, perhaps?

[Willow The Wisp]

- - Modern Boxing two dimensional thinkers tend towards two dimensional linear lists without specifying criteria. My more expansive response is:

Two distinct criteria; that of the overall excellence of record, and that of looking at heavies who had the biggest impact on boxing and the world in which they lived, both leavened with the unique opportunities and obstacles of their eras.

The first list is the boxing and world impact, both of which have the biggest influence in boxing.

1.Joe Louis…It don’t get any bigger worldwide than the rematch with Max Schmeling on the eve of WW2 in a bout that was relayed worldwide via the nascent radio of the era. Joe was the first black American heavyweight the overwhelming white majority could rally around and set the stage for the post WW2 integration of Major League Baseball and the US armed forces and subsequent civil rights movements. Need I add that Joe was also a major inspiration in the development of Nelson Mandela and Martin Luther King as young boys avidly listening to his fights on the radio?



2.The Klitschko brothers…Their collective was 109-7, 94 KO and never once took a ten count that averages out to 55-4, 47 KO. Between them they moved the heavyweight division to Germany to knock Don King out of the equation while ushering in the continuing saga of European dominance of the heavier boxing divisions.

3.Bob Fitzsimmons…A rare trifecta of being part the first proposed full length feature cinematographic project by Thomas Edison’s Black Maria Studio, the title fight against James J Corbett to be held in Dallas, Texas, circa 1895 that was cancelled when the Texas Legislature made prize fighting illegal. The always overly dramatic Corbett publicly forfeited his title that was then fought over near Langtry, Texas by Fitz and Peter Maher.

Maher had previously claimed the forfeited Corbett title in November of 1895 against Steve O’Donnell with a 1st rd KO. Fitz and Maher were situated in 1896 on a spit island in the middle of the Rio Grande(Bravo) for the first failed full length feature cinematographic project by Thomas Edison. Tragically the crew could not not get properly set up in misty conditions before Maher became his own victim of a first round KO as his claims to the title transferred to Ruby Robert. Whatever may have been filmed has thus far been lost in time though hope springs eternal that it may possibly turn up.

The 1897 Corbett vs Fitz fight held in Reno, Nevada, the first ever successful full length feature film that additionally became the first ever national and international blockbuster that established art of cinematography permanently in the world. Subsequently James J Jeffries helped develop the art of cinematography further when he knocked out Fitz to claim the title though sadly almost all of the Jeffries film has be either lost or waiting to be rediscovered. The first non boxing blockbuster featuring actors was The Great Train Robbery 6 years later in 1903, a film of only 10 minutes for perspective that introduced the first ever silent screen star to the public, Bronco Billy.

4.John L Sullivan, 39-1-1, 33 KO. John L was the first and only unified Bareknucks and Gloved Queensbury champ and the first American to consolidate titles that had previously belonged exclusively to the British. John L first set up the worldwide heavyweight stage in a growing age of literacy and media expansion, where they remained save for a nanoblip by Ingemar Johansson for a century before Lennox Lewis upset the American monopoly.

5A.Jack Dempsey, 55-6-8, 45 KO. Established the modern spectacle of boxing that is seldom matched and never exceeded.

5B.Muhammad Ali, 56-5, 37 KO. Perhaps the 2nd best known fighter in the world only exceeded by the modern phenomenon of Manny Pacquiao and his 3 billion Asian population base enhanced with modern communication broadcasting.

5C.Mike Tyson, 50-6, 44 KO. Youngest ever champ who cleaned up the derelict post Ali era to unify the titles and temporarily wipe Don King’s slate clean. He had already held the record for career purse earnings before King and Robin Givens ever sunk their claws into him.

Greatest Records

1.Joe Louis, 66-3, 52 KO. Nominally his 26(27)-1 heavyweight title records were exceeded, but, overall never surpassed. The 27th was Lee Savold who claimed both the white heavy title and the BBBC heavyweight title that Joe is seldom credited with after knocking him out.

2.The Klitschko brothers, 109-7, 94 KO and bukos title fights with nary a 10 count between them. Collectively they smashed the Louis record, and though individually Wlad exceeded his total career heavyweight title fights, he fell short of the overall Louis record. They may well hold the heavyweight record of the most winning rounds scored as overmatched opponents seldom penetrated their defense. More importantly they put down Don King for years of 10 counts and transferred heavyweight title fights to Germany-HERESY to be sure!

3.Rocky, 49-0, 43 KO. The most iconic record in all of boxing. My next door neighbor who knows shinola about boxing can recite Rocky’s record like a mantra.

4.Sam Langford, 178-29-39, 126 KO. Mere numerical records FAIL to capture Sam’s greatness, not the least being the sheer number of fights he had against HOF fighters that greatly exceed all such fights by other fighters.

5.Anthony Joshua, 24-2, 22 KO. More than half his career in title fights to become unified belt holder. No heavyweight as yet has done as much with such a limited number of fights. I always like to include a current great in rankings just to PO dusty mossbacks not understanding that all the greats in the making back when were moderns in their day as Josh is.

Adding up the two lists with fighters not appearing on both lists being assigned a place value of 6 to keep my rankings on keel, That’s Louis 1+1 with 2 pts, the Ks 2+2 with 4, Fitz 3+6 with 9, Rocky 3+6 with 9, John L 4+6 with 10, Dempsey, Ali, and Tyson, all 5+6 with 11 each, Josh 5+6 with 11, Sam 4+6 with 10.

Divided by 2 to get the final point rankings in numerical order: Louis 1, Ks 2, Fitz 4.5, Rocky 4.5, John L 5, Sam 5, and Dempsey, Ali, Tyson, and Josh 5.5

Translated into standard numerical ranking order: Louis 1, Ks 2, Fitz 3A, Rocky 3B, John L 5A and Sam 5B, Dempsey, Ali, Tyson, and Joshua 7A, 7B, 7C, 7 D.

So technically that 11 heavyweights if we split the Klitschko brothers, but they were such a dominating force in boxing that they really have to be consolidated as one unit to understand their impact...you're welcome.

That is a well thought out and most welcome response. It certainly underscores the wide range of methodology we can apply to quantify relative "Greatness". Concepts like historical impact and contributions to the development of the sport are more tangible discussions than people's prognostications about who would beat whom on the two subject's respective best day, assuming the forum contributer remains in need of holding down a regular job after their powers of observation have yielded what they could in betting the fights of today

[billeau2]

Where do you rank him and his style in the pantheon of heavyweight all-time greats?

I wouldn't call him a great. Emmanuel Stuart knew that fighters in this era don't fight inside so he taught Klitsko a "reset" of sorts. In an era where fighters fought at all ranges Klitsko gets ****** out "holding" excessivly. Try holding Marciano lol.

[billeau2]

Vlad was atrocious to watch, before and after Manny Steward taught him to fight tall. And he had the killer instinct of a giraffe, at best. One of those dozen guys in history who could beat him went by the name of Sanders. Another by Brewster.

He beat no immortal fighters, faded or prime, he beat no great fighters, faded or prime, His best win seems to be Chris Byrd, one of the finest pure boxers ever. Maybe you prefer Ray Mercer, a lazy fighter with an iron chin. That is round steak and flank steak, the rest are mere hamburger.

Vlad made millions of dollars and married a starlet he quickly divorced, or she him. The one thing that can be said of him was that he seemed consistently in shape. I never knew him to come in flabby or out of shape. But a great big muscular man with no killer instinct is persona non grata in the boxing world. The gay bar is down the street.

Fact: Klit had Joshua knocked out, and refused to go in for the kill. He was only a corporal of ring generalship, but most of his opponents were privates. He was more athlete than fighter.

Well written very funny. Really good humor always has elements of the truth... I wouldn't speak of any fighter like this but it appears that Lefty is Jack Johnson's Jack London!!

Both Klitskos could punch. Vitalie, I believe, could have perhaps been a great fighter... He seemed to me to have more potential.

[billeau2]

Oh, I guess I may have rounded ol' Wlad up a little for effect, but the point is the unbridled disrespect. People who are less than great as NATURAL fighters actually get to know that fact pretty soon into their attempts to become fighters. Fighting tends to work that way. If you find this out, yet still love the combat urge, you very seldom place your hope in ascending the deep pool of talent that is Boxing, where the big money resides. Instead, you go small. If you know that other kids in school can beat you up; you go out for wrestling while they play more popular sports like basketball or go on dates with the pretty girls; leaving you alone to roll around with other dudes feeling better about yourself. Or, you join a Martial Arts school to learn pretend fighting with other nerds. That is the talent feed to Mixed Martial Arts. But guys who go into Boxing are a very different breed. An opposite breed, in fact. They are the alpha dogs who already know that they fight better than anyone else in school; and they want to cash in on that rare and innate talent they possess. They have discovered that they are worthy of bigger rewards, and train their talents for THAT. And cash in big is what they do; on every continent on earth.
So..........Got that?
Now, If Mr. Wladimir Klitchko was as bad are many fans (not experts, and certainly not historians) here are suggesting he is; he would be in MMA, fighting in panties with a nut sack d****d over his face, one nut in each eye; getting paid cab fare to the arena, to entertain fans holding signs that read “Just Bleed!”.
He would not be one of the most famous athletes from continental Europe over the past 20 years and a leader (with his brother) of his country of some 41.51 million inhabitants owing to his fame as a fighter.

This place is on fire today. I love it!

[JAB5239]

I agree. Wasn't it really more attrition with Wladimir? Being head and shoulders above everyone else on the planet who regarded themselves as a tough guy, who could use an extra 50 mil., who had the balls to go for it; for a pretty long stretch? Isn't that just as real as one or two public displays of undeniable greatness, perhaps?

I agree with this. I'm not a fan of Wlad, but it takes a lot of focus to be champion as long as he was, even in a weak era. The guy had talent, he was just extremely boring and could never leave his mark with a career defining fight.

[ShoulderRoll]

I wouldn't call him a great. Emmanuel Stuart knew that fighters in this era don't fight inside so he taught Klitsko a "reset" of sorts. In an era where fighters fought at all ranges Klitsko gets ****** out "holding" excessivly. Try holding Marciano lol.

Would you pick Marciano over Klitschko?