Heavyweight who fought the best comp in the division.... Top 5

[famicommander]

Not counting his already awesome cruiserweight resume, Evander Holyfield fought some good dudes at heavyweight.
Pinklon Thomas
Michael Dokes
Buster Douglas
George Foreman
Rid**** Bowe (three times)
Michael Moorer (twice)
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson (twice)
Lennox Lewis (twice)
John Ruiz (three times)
Hasim Rahman
Chris Byrd
James Toney
Sultan Ibragimov
Nikolai Valuev

[QueensburyRules]

No love for Joe Louis? Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Braddock, Walcott, Charles, Marciano, Lewis, Conn, Bivins... with the exception of Carnera, all HOFers.

- - I second that motion, and so it is the(his) record that Joe Louis is the BEST Heavywt in history.

The rest can eat cake...

[BattlingNelson]

I think the best way to gauge it is to check how many ranked contenders they fought and give points for the higher ranked opponents. Ali would likely be no. 1. After him? I don't know. Probably Wladimir Klitschko.

[Willow The Wisp]

True but Dempsey made that over eight fights; for the first five Kearns was taking 50%.

Ruth was making top baseball salaries (obviously diminished by the reserve clause) from 1918 to 1932.

Then again to go along with how much money was in boxing . . . 1924 Wills (a negro) made 125K for one fight, Firpo (before his manger and others robbed him of course). That same season Ruth only made < 60K.

That boxers made that kind of money wasn't lost on Babe Ruth who finally held out for part of the 1930 season until they met his 80K demand.

But I agree in the big picture, Dempsey had a grueling road to the top and after Firpo he was exhausted and I think truly wanted to find a different way to make money, only returning for Tunney because the money was just too big, 800K plus when it all washed out.

P.S. I don t think Bobby Jones ever made any money always insisting to compete as an amateur. I could be wrong.

Good post. Thanks! A word or three about Harry Wills for anyone who might care but doesn't know already. Harry Wills (1889-1958), known as "The Black Panther" was perhaps the best heavyweight who ever lived, who never claimed the lineal world title. During his prime he occupied the number one contender position like he owned the place, standing head and shoulders above all of Jack Dempsey's other title suitors (figuratively, although Wills stood 6'4", NOT the 6'2" that revisionist theorists have recently, erroneously claimed! -Sidebar). Owing to the bigoted norms of the times, the immortal Jack Johnson's title reign 1908 - 1915 was mared by division and violent race riots as whites across the world were, for the first time in history forced to accept that they were not, afterall, the superior race when the most time honored test was brought to bear, touching off the global search for "The Great White Hope" to defeat him. Subsequently, fight promoters were for many years pressured by high ranking Government officials in the US, Australia, Great Britain and Europe to avoid matching another African decended man for the title. During the 1920s officials refused to pair popular champion Dempsey with the brilliant Harry Wills, fearing an outbreak of renewed hostilities. In those times, with Boxing at its popularity peak and by far the biggest global sport; the influence of the title was great enough to force international policy. When understanding this history it is Vitally Important (!!) to understand that Dempsey was not at all to blame for any of this, and wanted desperately to be matched against Wills for the title, doing everything he could to make that happen, almost succeeding on three occasions, only to have his effors shut down. Wills fought from 1911 to 1932 and as a superstar in sports made a fine living, even while being denied his rightful opportunity to fight for the most important prize in sports. Investing wisely he became a very successful landlord and real estate developer in NYC. He lived his life as one of the early unofficial mayors of Harlem, New York during the golden age of the world's most prominent black neighborhood, residing at the luxurious Strivers’ Row surrounded by admiring neighbors Eubie Blake, Fletcher Henderson, Vertner Tandy, W. C. Handy, Dr. Louis T. Wright, Henry Pace, comedian Stepin Fetchit, actor/singer Bill “Bojangles” Robinson, and preacher/congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Had Harry Wills been allowed to fight for the title there's just no telling what would have happened, though beating excellent, tall (modern day sized) heavyweights was Jack Dempsey's specialty, explaining why he has always served as the idol of Mike Tyson, who was about 3 inches shorter still. Certainly we do know this. If Harry Wills had won the crown, he would have worn that title with honor and dignity.

[billeau2]

No love for Joe Louis? Schmeling, Sharkey, Carnera, Baer, Braddock, Walcott, Charles, Marciano, Lewis, Conn, Bivins... with the exception of Carnera, all HOFers.

So let me provide some more context for the thread. Im not so much interested in making a claim that a heavyweight is automatically better based on the highest level of competition he fought. I am more interested in showing that many great heavyweights never had fellow ATG at, or near prime, to contend with. Actually I would argue that the point is largely irrelevant to the division with the notable exception of the Ali, Foreman, Frazier, Norton era...

Now specificially regarding Louis: His biggest fiat is his consistency and this to me would put him at the pinnicle if we were using a more comprehensive criteria regarding the reign of a champ. I don't use the boxing HOF for much lol, it doesn't really exceed very ordinary standards... I mean I respect Gatti as much as the next guy, but he is in the HOF...

Even with all that said certainly a case could be made for Louis.

[billeau2]

Yea all true but another way to say it Joe Louis is the only champion to ever stop the fight previous HW champions. That's quite a run and deserves a nod for fighting what was the best of his time. No duck in Louis.

Also when you talk about Lewis there are only two undisputed HW champions on his resume and one was past it (Tyson) and the other still learning (the Ukrainian guy.)

But truth be told I agree with yours and Bill's list, just wanted to throw in an argument for Joe.

I should have been more clear: Louis' main fiat, which was remarkable... under the criteria of this thread does not matter lol. So if we were considering more than just the level of competition faced, Louis would be on the shuttle bus to either #1, or #2 in my opinion. But we are only considering the raw level of competition and somewhat how consistently a fighter was at the top level... so Jimmy Young who fought Ali, Foreman, Norton, Lyle, Shavers.... would probably be number one or twom accept he never won a championship lol.

[billeau2]

I like the Premise. I'll bite at this.


One: Muhammad Ali: In a league of his own in this regard.

Two: James J. Jeffries: Hank Griffin (twice), Gus Ruhlin (twice), Joe Choynski, Joe Goddard, Peter Jackson, Mexican Pete Everett, Sailor Tom Sharkey (twice), Bob Armstrong, Bob Fitzsimmons (twice), James J. Corbett (twice), Joe Kennedy, Jack Munroe. - Stellar collection, the highest medium opponent quality level of any modern HWC. Quality over quantity.

Three: Jack Dempsey: Joe Bonds, "Agile" Andre Anderson, John Lester Johnson, Fireman Jim Flynn (twice), Willie Meehan (x4), Charlie "Motorman" Miller, Bob McAllister, Ed "Gunboat" Smith (twice), Carl Morris (twice), Homer Smith, Bill Brennan (twice), Billy Miske (x3), Arthur Perkey, "Cowboy" Tom McCarthy, Bob Devere, Porkey Dan Flynn (twice), Fred Fulton, Battling Levinski, Jess Willard, Georges Carpentier, Tommy Gibbins, Luis Firpo, Jack Sharkey, Gene Tunney (twice). - Hard to beat collection. People forget that Dempsey did much of his work before winning the title. As champion, he made more money per fight than Red Grange, Bobby Jones, Bill Tilden, Babe Ruth and Jim Thorpe would earn in their combinded lifetimes; so the hunger was lacking after awhile.


Four: Joe Louis: Buck Everett, Al Delaney, Charley Massera, Lee Ramage (twice), Patsy Perroni, Donald Red Barry, Roy Lazer, Primo Carnera, King Levinski, Max Baer, Paulino Uzcudun, Charley Retzlaff, Max Schmeling (twice), Jack Sharkey, Al Ettore, Bob Pastor (twice), Jim Braddock, Tommy Farr, Nathan Mann, Harry Thomas, John Henry Lewis, Jack Roper, "Two Ton" Tony Galento, Arturo Godoy (twice), Johnny Paycheck, Al McCoy, Red Burman, Gus Darazio, "Skysc****r" Abe Simon (twice), Tony Musto, Buddy Bear (twice), Billy Conn (Twice), Lou Nova, Tami Mauriello, Jersey Joe Walcott (twice), Ezzard Charles, César Brion, Omelio Agramonte, Freddie Beshore, Lee Savold, Jimmy Bivins, Rocky Marciano. - Bum of the Month club was a reference to how easy the Bomber made it look. 14 fights vs. Hall of famers in there. By contrast, Mike Tyson Fought only 5, winning just 2.



And remember kids, if you can’t talk a bit about the fighter being listed, or you discover in a moment of enlightenment that you're supporting IN ANY WAY your pushback with assumptions; stop! That **** kills brain cells, and I don't engage that dialog. And be careful interpreting resources like BoxRec (to which I am a research contributer). For the benefit of younger fans, Randy Couture was a 19 - 11 fighter and B.J. Penn could only manage 16 - 14 - 2. But they are two of the greatest ever.

Great List!!!!

Jeffries was regarded as supreme by many fighting men all the way up to Louis. Whenever we lose a generation of boxing pundits who saw multi generational greats, we lose so much in boxing history.

[billeau2]

Good point about records. One must also look at the names and the quality of the opposition faced and beaten.

Perfect example of this is Choyinsky (spelling?). Lost a lot but was a great talent... so was Corbett BTW who also... lost a lot.

[billeau2]

Good post. Thanks! A word or three about Harry Wills for anyone who might care but doesn't know already. Harry Wills (1889-1958), known as "The Black Panther" was perhaps the best heavyweight who ever lived, who never claimed the lineal world title. During his prime he occupied the number one contender position like he owned the place, standing head and shoulders above all of Jack Dempsey's other title suitors (figuratively, although Wills stood 6'4", NOT the 6'2" that revisionist theorists have recently, erroneously claimed! -Sidebar). Owing to the bigoted norms of the times, the immortal Jack Johnson's title reign 1908 - 1915 was mared by division and violent race riots as whites across the world were, for the first time in history forced to accept that they were not, afterall, the superior race when the most time honored test was brought to bear, touching off the global search for "The Great White Hope" to defeat him. Subsequently, fight promoters were for many years pressured by high ranking Government officials in the US, Australia, Great Britain and Europe to avoid matching another African decended man for the title. During the 1920s officials refused to pair popular champion Dempsey with the brilliant Harry Wills, fearing an outbreak of renewed hostilities. In those times, with Boxing at its popularity peak and by far the biggest global sport; the influence of the title was great enough to force international policy. When understanding this history it is Vitally Important (!!) to understand that Dempsey was not at all to blame for any of this, and wanted desperately to be matched against Wills for the title, doing everything he could to make that happen, almost succeeding on three occasions, only to have his effors shut down. Wills fought from 1911 to 1932 and as a superstar in sports made a fine living, even while being denied his rightful opportunity to fight for the most important prize in sports. Investing wisely he became a very successful landlord and real estate developer in NYC. He lived his life as one of the early unofficial mayors of Harlem, New York during the golden age of the world's most prominent black neighborhood, residing at the luxurious Strivers’ Row surrounded by admiring neighbors Eubie Blake, Fletcher Henderson, Vertner Tandy, W. C. Handy, Dr. Louis T. Wright, Henry Pace, comedian Stepin Fetchit, actor/singer Bill “Bojangles” Robinson, and preacher/congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Had Harry Wills been allowed to fight for the title there's just no telling what would have happened, though beating excellent, tall (modern day sized) heavyweights was Jack Dempsey's specialty, explaining why he has always served as the idol of Mike Tyson, who was about 3 inches shorter still. Certainly we do know this. If Harry Wills had won the crown, he would have worn that title with honor and dignity.

As a boxing fan... who would have loved to watch if Wills and Robinson had a dispute about someone knocking over a garbage can! Seriously that area of Harlem is still beautiful today!

[QueensburyRules]

Not counting his already awesome cruiserweight resume, Evander Holyfield fought some good dudes at heavyweight.
Pinklon Thomas
Michael Dokes
Buster Douglas
George Foreman
Rid**** Bowe (three times)
Michael Moorer (twice)
Ray Mercer
Mike Tyson (twice)
Lennox Lewis (twice)
John Ruiz (three times)
Hasim Rahman
Chris Byrd
James Toney
Sultan Ibragimov
Nikolai Valuev

- - In spite of my negative thoughts about Vander, and in spite of his limited heavy record, 26-10-2, his is the most heavily packed in top rated fighters.

20/38=53% of his career. Could've been much denser, but he hung on way too long to his terrible physical detriment.