Heavyweight who fought the best comp in the division.... Top 5

[Willow The Wisp]

As a boxing fan... who would have loved to watch if Wills and Robinson had a dispute about someone knocking over a garbage can! Seriously that area of Harlem is still beautiful today!

Word was, that nobody but nobody in Harlem messed around with Big Harry, and Nobody was late with the rent. I can imagine that.

[The Old LefHook]

Good post. Thanks! A word or three about Harry Wills for anyone who might care but doesn't know already. Harry Wills (1889-1958), known as "The Black Panther" was perhaps the best heavyweight who ever lived, who never claimed the lineal world title. During his prime he occupied the number one contender position like he owned the place, standing head and shoulders above all of Jack Dempsey's other title suitors (figuratively, although Wills stood 6'4", NOT the 6'2" that revisionist theorists have recently, erroneously claimed! -Sidebar). Owing to the bigoted norms of the times, the immortal Jack Johnson's title reign 1908 - 1915 was mared by division and violent race riots as whites across the world were, for the first time in history forced to accept that they were not, afterall, the superior race when the most time honored test was brought to bear, touching off the global search for "The Great White Hope" to defeat him. Subsequently, fight promoters were for many years pressured by high ranking Government officials in the US, Australia, Great Britain and Europe to avoid matching another African decended man for the title. During the 1920s officials refused to pair popular champion Dempsey with the brilliant Harry Wills, fearing an outbreak of renewed hostilities. In those times, with Boxing at its popularity peak and by far the biggest global sport; the influence of the title was great enough to force international policy. When understanding this history it is Vitally Important (!!) to understand that Dempsey was not at all to blame for any of this, and wanted desperately to be matched against Wills for the title, doing everything he could to make that happen, almost succeeding on three occasions, only to have his effors shut down. Wills fought from 1911 to 1932 and as a superstar in sports made a fine living, even while being denied his rightful opportunity to fight for the most important prize in sports. Investing wisely he became a very successful landlord and real estate developer in NYC. He lived his life as one of the early unofficial mayors of Harlem, New York during the golden age of the world's most prominent black neighborhood, residing at the luxurious Strivers’ Row surrounded by admiring neighbors Eubie Blake, Fletcher Henderson, Vertner Tandy, W. C. Handy, Dr. Louis T. Wright, Henry Pace, comedian Stepin Fetchit, actor/singer Bill “Bojangles” Robinson, and preacher/congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Had Harry Wills been allowed to fight for the title there's just no telling what would have happened, though beating excellent, tall (modern day sized) heavyweights was Jack Dempsey's specialty, explaining why he has always served as the idol of Mike Tyson, who was about 3 inches shorter still. Certainly we do know this. If Harry Wills had won the crown, he would have worn that title with honor and dignity.

How does one go about verifying what I have reddened? Height is indeed the most played with statistic in sports, especially boxing.

[Willie Pep 229]

Good post. Thanks! A word or three about Harry Wills for anyone who might care but doesn't know already. Harry Wills (1889-1958), known as "The Black Panther" was perhaps the best heavyweight who ever lived, who never claimed the lineal world title. During his prime he occupied the number one contender position like he owned the place, standing head and shoulders above all of Jack Dempsey's other title suitors (figuratively, although Wills stood 6'4", NOT the 6'2" that revisionist theorists have recently, erroneously claimed! -Sidebar). Owing to the bigoted norms of the times, the immortal Jack Johnson's title reign 1908 - 1915 was mared by division and violent race riots as whites across the world were, for the first time in history forced to accept that they were not, afterall, the superior race when the most time honored test was brought to bear, touching off the global search for "The Great White Hope" to defeat him. Subsequently, fight promoters were for many years pressured by high ranking Government officials in the US, Australia, Great Britain and Europe to avoid matching another African decended man for the title. During the 1920s officials refused to pair popular champion Dempsey with the brilliant Harry Wills, fearing an outbreak of renewed hostilities. In those times, with Boxing at its popularity peak and by far the biggest global sport; the influence of the title was great enough to force international policy. When understanding this history it is Vitally Important (!!) to understand that Dempsey was not at all to blame for any of this, and wanted desperately to be matched against Wills for the title, doing everything he could to make that happen, almost succeeding on three occasions, only to have his effors shut down. Wills fought from 1911 to 1932 and as a superstar in sports made a fine living, even while being denied his rightful opportunity to fight for the most important prize in sports. Investing wisely he became a very successful landlord and real estate developer in NYC. He lived his life as one of the early unofficial mayors of Harlem, New York during the golden age of the world's most prominent black neighborhood, residing at the luxurious Strivers’ Row surrounded by admiring neighbors Eubie Blake, Fletcher Henderson, Vertner Tandy, W. C. Handy, Dr. Louis T. Wright, Henry Pace, comedian Stepin Fetchit, actor/singer Bill “Bojangles” Robinson, and preacher/congressman Adam Clayton Powell Jr. Had Harry Wills been allowed to fight for the title there's just no telling what would have happened, though beating excellent, tall (modern day sized) heavyweights was Jack Dempsey's specialty, explaining why he has always served as the idol of Mike Tyson, who was about 3 inches shorter still. Certainly we do know this. If Harry Wills had won the crown, he would have worn that title with honor and dignity.

I would just like to add . . . For all the wrong that was done to Wills because of the color line there are two mitigations: Dispite the fact that Rickard wouldn't give him a shot at the title Wills made quite a nice living off of Tex Rickard promotions.

Also for most of the 1920s he was viewd in New York City as the 'uncrowned' champion. He held a celebrity status with the populace, not just in Harlem, but with the White community as well; often refereeing charity events and making appearances.

[Willie Pep 229]

How does one go about verifying what I have reddened? Height is indeed the most played with statistic in sports, especially boxing.

I doubt you can . . . Maybe gather all of the Wills stats you can find and choose the one that appears most often.

But of course that can be easily incorrect, when it only takes one mistake by a major contributor, e.g. The NYT to have everyone copy that mistake and erroneously make it the CW.

Much like the apocryphal 104 degrees in Havana, 1915.

Maybe, find a very early stat before Wills is popular and people had cause lie about his height . . . But even that is a bit questionable when you can see cause for Negro newspapers making him bigger and White papers reducing his size.

The answer is probably . . . The truth is lost to history.

P.S. Was he ever put through the military induction system for the draft (circa 1917) ?

[Marchegiano]

Youse already know what I am going to say.

Tunney's an overrated whore who did little and is far from one who fought the best of a division.

Colorline guys I disagree with.
Underweight guys I disagree with.

Tunney fought the best of the division? Best in the division, you're telling me none of the black fighters of the era are to be considered best? You're telling me all the best HWs of the era are LHWs and MWs?

Dempsey - agree
Battling Levinsky - LHW
Grebb - MW
Tommy Lougren - LHW
Carpentier - LHW
Gibbons - LHW
Johhny Risko - So did everyone else
Heeney - The guy with no wins?


You have 3 HWs of that era, one of which most fans would agree was great, two are

But dey ain't got 'nuff bigguns at HW doe Marche. Agreed, hence it being a real tragedy they ducked black fighters.

Norfolk, Panama, Loopin', they deserve more respect. Folk say "colorline will always mire" Nope. No it will not. Not as long as you ****s continue to push nonsense like the idea you can possibly have a "beat the best of the division", while claiming guys like Langford were so great, except this destroyer of men never saw the great Sam. Hmm...seems to me the lane is done picked and it doesn't matter how much respect is ever gained for the blacks of the era, fans will continue to preserve the statuses found is a racist system.

If X is an ATG, and Y is said to have fought the best of an era, and X is from that era, Z would expect to see X on Y's record. Think about it. Think about who you call ATG and then think about who you claim beat the best of a division.

Wills, Godfrey, Langford, Gains, Norfolk, and Panama all overlap Tunney's career. Don't let me catch those names on your ATG lists. I will point out the inconsistency. You can not tell me you recognize those men for their superiority but also reckon Tunney beat the best of the division, or Dempsey.

That covered


1 Rocky - Duh, beat everyone, only criticism you can give him on this is you're not impressed by who the best of his division in his era were. You can not claim he didn't fight and destroy the best of them.

2 Jeffries - Makes Tunney and Dempsey look like punk bitches by fighting and beating the colored champions before become world champion. Colorline? Yes, but you know how Sully has Godfrey and Corbett has Jackson then by Dempsey we have Wills. Who was Jim's black rival he never met? Exactly, had none, beat that fool prior to knocking about Fitzs. This man was a division clearer and though more racist, probably, than Jack Dempsey, also more of a dominant champion....given he actually fought the best of the era rather than claiming it while ducking the number one guy the people want to see.

3 Ali - Covered, actually never even heard a story of Ali ducking anyone.

4 Fitzs - I gives him the pass because there was no clear great to duck from the black portion of history. I don't even know of a challenge Fitzs avoided let alone a legitimate challenger. Jackson drops his title the same year Fitzs wins his. I don't have any reason to believe Fitzs would have upheld the colorline and all the reason in the world to believe he'd've fough a best of the blacks in Australia or the UK rather than duck. His resume can't be improved, Corbett, Maher, Sharkey, and Jeffries in title fights. Choy, Creedon, Ruhlin, Dunkhorst, Slavin, and Nonpariel. Admittedly, plenty of not HW, but also HW had no minimum and other divisions are not even real divisions yet, and, if you chop his brags to just HW, he still beat the best of his era in that division. Hell, he beat the best of his era in every division he touched.

5 Robert Delaney - Yeah, i'm cheating to put a little light on this man. I can admit Holy, Lewis, better choices, but I'm still putting Rob in the mix. In 1864 who is the HW champion? In England, Vacant. In America, Coburn. Coburn in 1864 was pissing around with Mace trying to get a fight with the former English champion so he could claim the crown. Mace didn't do it. In England 1864 is a year without a champion. King had retired in 63 after Heenan knocked him out and the Brits did that ye olden let's hold up the call until he wakes up bull what like Cribb-Moly. Wormuld, who would be champion by 65, had just started his career and so only had two fights against nothing-worth opposition. No one claimed the English title, and, the best man around to get the claim from was Mace who was more than happy to avoid fighters at that time while they worked out who would be the next champion. `Delaney opens his career in 1863 against a nothing-worth. His next fight is with Harry Allen in 1864, this is a name fight, if you don't know Allen you don't know BK. Tom Allen, champion in 69, tried Delaney also in 1864. in 1865 no man would challenge Delaney and Rob could not get a fight. Likewise, consensus has Robert as the best of his era, but, there is a lack of will to crown the foreign black man as champion. It's an odd thing to read, someone calling a man the best and saying he'd definitely be champion if backers would put together a championship fight for him. This never happened, he fought Allen again and then ****ed off out of the sport because no one would fight him and since no name of worth would fight him no backer would invest in his title fight so he was never given one. A champion in every way except the crown. He has the best resume of the era, he has the consensus agreement he is the clear leader of the division, he had no backing and no way to entice good names to fight him. by 65 the US crown would go vacant. 65 is the last year Rob fought Allen as well. Wormuld would make the claim in 1865. Off fighting Andrew Marsden. Andrew Marsden vs Harry Allen, who is more important? Exactly. Delaney left the sport in 65 and Wormuld was crowned champion after securing backing for a title fight against a nothing-worth. In fact, Wormuld was such a weak choice for champion his losing the title did not come from a fight but rather Mace making a claim and fighting a vacant with Goss. Mace never recognized Wormuld and simply over stepped Wormuld with a superior fight and heavier backing. They had scheduled a fight once, it fell through, and then Mace son'd him with biz alone.

1864-65 who is the HW champion? Who is the MW champion? I think there's a very good case for Delaney.

[DeeMoney]

If you get credit for fighting a top guy multiple times, then I submit Jersey Joe Walcott to the discussion:

Marciano- twice
Ez Charles- four times
Louis (post prime but still champ)- twice
Joey Maxim (top 5 heavy for a while)- three times

Mix in Rex Layne, Lee Oma, and Jimmy Bivins and thats 14 fights against top post war competition.

[Willow The Wisp]

Youse already know what I am going to say.

Tunney's an overrated whore who did little and is far from one who fought the best of a division.

Colorline guys I disagree with.
Underweight guys I disagree with.

Tunney fought the best of the division? Best in the division, you're telling me none of the black fighters of the era are to be considered best? You're telling me all the best HWs of the era are LHWs and MWs?

Dempsey - agree
Battling Levinsky - LHW
Grebb - MW
Tommy Lougren - LHW
Carpentier - LHW
Gibbons - LHW
Johhny Risko - So did everyone else
Heeney - The guy with no wins?


You have 3 HWs of that era, one of which most fans would agree was great, two are

But dey ain't got 'nuff bigguns at HW doe Marche. Agreed, hence it being a real tragedy they ducked black fighters.

Norfolk, Panama, Loopin', they deserve more respect. Folk say "colorline will always mire" Nope. No it will not. Not as long as you ****s continue to push nonsense like the idea you can possibly have a "beat the best of the division", while claiming guys like Langford were so great, except this destroyer of men never saw the great Sam. Hmm...seems to me the lane is done picked and it doesn't matter how much respect is ever gained for the blacks of the era, fans will continue to preserve the statuses found is a racist system.

If X is an ATG, and Y is said to have fought the best of an era, and X is from that era, Z would expect to see X on Y's record. Think about it. Think about who you call ATG and then think about who you claim beat the best of a division.

Wills, Godfrey, Langford, Gains, Norfolk, and Panama all overlap Tunney's career. Don't let me catch those names on your ATG lists. I will point out the inconsistency. You can not tell me you recognize those men for their superiority but also reckon Tunney beat the best of the division, or Dempsey.

That covered


1 Rocky - Duh, beat everyone, only criticism you can give him on this is you're not impressed by who the best of his division in his era were. You can not claim he didn't fight and destroy the best of them.

2 Jeffries - Makes Tunney and Dempsey look like punk bitches by fighting and beating the colored champions before become world champion. Colorline? Yes, but you know how Sully has Godfrey and Corbett has Jackson then by Dempsey we have Wills. Who was Jim's black rival he never met? Exactly, had none, beat that fool prior to knocking about Fitzs. This man was a division clearer and though more racist, probably, than Jack Dempsey, also more of a dominant champion....given he actually fought the best of the era rather than claiming it while ducking the number one guy the people want to see.

3 Ali - Covered, actually never even heard a story of Ali ducking anyone.

4 Fitzs - I gives him the pass because there was no clear great to duck from the black portion of history. I don't even know of a challenge Fitzs avoided let alone a legitimate challenger. Jackson drops his title the same year Fitzs wins his. I don't have any reason to believe Fitzs would have upheld the colorline and all the reason in the world to believe he'd've fough a best of the blacks in Australia or the UK rather than duck. His resume can't be improved, Corbett, Maher, Sharkey, and Jeffries in title fights. Choy, Creedon, Ruhlin, Dunkhorst, Slavin, and Nonpariel. Admittedly, plenty of not HW, but also HW had no minimum and other divisions are not even real divisions yet, and, if you chop his brags to just HW, he still beat the best of his era in that division. Hell, he beat the best of his era in every division he touched.

5 Robert Delaney - Yeah, i'm cheating to put a little light on this man. I can admit Holy, Lewis, better choices, but I'm still putting Rob in the mix. In 1864 who is the HW champion? In England, Vacant. In America, Coburn. Coburn in 1864 was pissing around with Mace trying to get a fight with the former English champion so he could claim the crown. Mace didn't do it. In England 1864 is a year without a champion. King had retired in 63 after Heenan knocked him out and the Brits did that ye olden let's hold up the call until he wakes up bull what like Cribb-Moly. Wormuld, who would be champion by 65, had just started his career and so only had two fights against nothing-worth opposition. No one claimed the English title, and, the best man around to get the claim from was Mace who was more than happy to avoid fighters at that time while they worked out who would be the next champion. `Delaney opens his career in 1863 against a nothing-worth. His next fight is with Harry Allen in 1864, this is a name fight, if you don't know Allen you don't know BK. Tom Allen, champion in 69, tried Delaney also in 1864. in 1865 no man would challenge Delaney and Rob could not get a fight. Likewise, consensus has Robert as the best of his era, but, there is a lack of will to crown the foreign black man as champion. It's an odd thing to read, someone calling a man the best and saying he'd definitely be champion if backers would put together a championship fight for him. This never happened, he fought Allen again and then ****ed off out of the sport because no one would fight him and since no name of worth would fight him no backer would invest in his title fight so he was never given one. A champion in every way except the crown. He has the best resume of the era, he has the consensus agreement he is the clear leader of the division, he had no backing and no way to entice good names to fight him. by 65 the US crown would go vacant. 65 is the last year Rob fought Allen as well. Wormuld would make the claim in 1865. Off fighting Andrew Marsden. Andrew Marsden vs Harry Allen, who is more important? Exactly. Delaney left the sport in 65 and Wormuld was crowned champion after securing backing for a title fight against a nothing-worth. In fact, Wormuld was such a weak choice for champion his losing the title did not come from a fight but rather Mace making a claim and fighting a vacant with Goss. Mace never recognized Wormuld and simply over stepped Wormuld with a superior fight and heavier backing. They had scheduled a fight once, it fell through, and then Mace son'd him with biz alone.

1864-65 who is the HW champion? Who is the MW champion? I think there's a very good case for Delaney.

Nobody this deep into their area of interest needs any affirmation, but I offer some anyway as a gesture of friendship. Good stuff.

[billeau2]

Word was, that nobody but nobody in Harlem messed around with Big Harry, and Nobody was late with the rent. I can imagine that.

Harry a a big *****cat....err a panther.

[mrbig1]

What about Jim Corbett. He fought Sullivan, Jeffries 2 times, Peter Jackson, Fitzsimmons, Tom Sharkey, and Charles Mitchell. Let's remember that the only reason why Jeffries won the first fight is because Corbett wore himself by kick his ass for 25 rounds.

[billeau2]

Youse already know what I am going to say.

Tunney's an overrated whore who did little and is far from one who fought the best of a division.

Colorline guys I disagree with.
Underweight guys I disagree with.

Tunney fought the best of the division? Best in the division, you're telling me none of the black fighters of the era are to be considered best? You're telling me all the best HWs of the era are LHWs and MWs?

Dempsey - agree
Battling Levinsky - LHW
Grebb - MW
Tommy Lougren - LHW
Carpentier - LHW
Gibbons - LHW
Johhny Risko - So did everyone else
Heeney - The guy with no wins?


You have 3 HWs of that era, one of which most fans would agree was great, two are

But dey ain't got 'nuff bigguns at HW doe Marche. Agreed, hence it being a real tragedy they ducked black fighters.

Norfolk, Panama, Loopin', they deserve more respect. Folk say "colorline will always mire" Nope. No it will not. Not as long as you ****s continue to push nonsense like the idea you can possibly have a "beat the best of the division", while claiming guys like Langford were so great, except this destroyer of men never saw the great Sam. Hmm...seems to me the lane is done picked and it doesn't matter how much respect is ever gained for the blacks of the era, fans will continue to preserve the statuses found is a racist system.

If X is an ATG, and Y is said to have fought the best of an era, and X is from that era, Z would expect to see X on Y's record. Think about it. Think about who you call ATG and then think about who you claim beat the best of a division.

Wills, Godfrey, Langford, Gains, Norfolk, and Panama all overlap Tunney's career. Don't let me catch those names on your ATG lists. I will point out the inconsistency. You can not tell me you recognize those men for their superiority but also reckon Tunney beat the best of the division, or Dempsey.

That covered


1 Rocky - Duh, beat everyone, only criticism you can give him on this is you're not impressed by who the best of his division in his era were. You can not claim he didn't fight and destroy the best of them.

2 Jeffries - Makes Tunney and Dempsey look like punk bitches by fighting and beating the colored champions before become world champion. Colorline? Yes, but you know how Sully has Godfrey and Corbett has Jackson then by Dempsey we have Wills. Who was Jim's black rival he never met? Exactly, had none, beat that fool prior to knocking about Fitzs. This man was a division clearer and though more racist, probably, than Jack Dempsey, also more of a dominant champion....given he actually fought the best of the era rather than claiming it while ducking the number one guy the people want to see.

3 Ali - Covered, actually never even heard a story of Ali ducking anyone.

4 Fitzs - I gives him the pass because there was no clear great to duck from the black portion of history. I don't even know of a challenge Fitzs avoided let alone a legitimate challenger. Jackson drops his title the same year Fitzs wins his. I don't have any reason to believe Fitzs would have upheld the colorline and all the reason in the world to believe he'd've fough a best of the blacks in Australia or the UK rather than duck. His resume can't be improved, Corbett, Maher, Sharkey, and Jeffries in title fights. Choy, Creedon, Ruhlin, Dunkhorst, Slavin, and Nonpariel. Admittedly, plenty of not HW, but also HW had no minimum and other divisions are not even real divisions yet, and, if you chop his brags to just HW, he still beat the best of his era in that division. Hell, he beat the best of his era in every division he touched.

5 Robert Delaney - Yeah, i'm cheating to put a little light on this man. I can admit Holy, Lewis, better choices, but I'm still putting Rob in the mix. In 1864 who is the HW champion? In England, Vacant. In America, Coburn. Coburn in 1864 was pissing around with Mace trying to get a fight with the former English champion so he could claim the crown. Mace didn't do it. In England 1864 is a year without a champion. King had retired in 63 after Heenan knocked him out and the Brits did that ye olden let's hold up the call until he wakes up bull what like Cribb-Moly. Wormuld, who would be champion by 65, had just started his career and so only had two fights against nothing-worth opposition. No one claimed the English title, and, the best man around to get the claim from was Mace who was more than happy to avoid fighters at that time while they worked out who would be the next champion. `Delaney opens his career in 1863 against a nothing-worth. His next fight is with Harry Allen in 1864, this is a name fight, if you don't know Allen you don't know BK. Tom Allen, champion in 69, tried Delaney also in 1864. in 1865 no man would challenge Delaney and Rob could not get a fight. Likewise, consensus has Robert as the best of his era, but, there is a lack of will to crown the foreign black man as champion. It's an odd thing to read, someone calling a man the best and saying he'd definitely be champion if backers would put together a championship fight for him. This never happened, he fought Allen again and then ****ed off out of the sport because no one would fight him and since no name of worth would fight him no backer would invest in his title fight so he was never given one. A champion in every way except the crown. He has the best resume of the era, he has the consensus agreement he is the clear leader of the division, he had no backing and no way to entice good names to fight him. by 65 the US crown would go vacant. 65 is the last year Rob fought Allen as well. Wormuld would make the claim in 1865. Off fighting Andrew Marsden. Andrew Marsden vs Harry Allen, who is more important? Exactly. Delaney left the sport in 65 and Wormuld was crowned champion after securing backing for a title fight against a nothing-worth. In fact, Wormuld was such a weak choice for champion his losing the title did not come from a fight but rather Mace making a claim and fighting a vacant with Goss. Mace never recognized Wormuld and simply over stepped Wormuld with a superior fight and heavier backing. They had scheduled a fight once, it fell through, and then Mace son'd him with biz alone.

1864-65 who is the HW champion? Who is the MW champion? I think there's a very good case for Delaney.

Were talkin Heavyweight champs... Not guys who SHOULD have been champs. Its fodder for another thread for sure but its just not the same.