Heavyweight who fought the best comp in the division.... Top 5

[Marchegiano]

I'm the last guy in the room to confuse ability with state sanctioned titles... I have no problem with the point that "official" means little to nothing in so far as ability goes... But before one climbs a mountain.... ya know... and if we want to put fourth ideas that are different than a list of sanctioned heavyweight champions, thats all good... Its just a bit too ambitious for what I was aiming to do. But then again this thread has an ulterior motive and it is not one that makes any champion look better as compared to fighters who might have had some qualifying aspect to similar recognition: Ive mentioned it a few times now and will do so again... The notion that great heavyweights fought similar competition while reigning supreme has to be challenged. Better to look at the general level of ability of the challengers than insisting on fellow ATG Greats at prime level.

Clearing the division, and (I know you may hate me for this but gotta do it...) the Lineal, great Black Fighters who fought fellow greats sometimes many times over, are more than legit... they are ultimately a better measure, just not the mantle I chose to pick up this time round.

Oh buddy, you're not ready for Delaney

You're going to like this, I think.

Sanctioned weight divisions do not exist in the 1860s.

Lineal in the 1860s, of course, lineal is a thing we applied after the fact. Lineal is exactly what I'm talking about.

Lineal, being unsanctioned champions from before the time of sanctioned championships and weight divisions, are absolutely accepted. You already accept them. Everyone from Sullivan to Dempsey in the HW division. Sullivan to Johnson if you're going to be absolute, but no one recognized the IBU. To clarify, should be obvious but JIC, I do not mean Dempsey is the last non-body champion, I mean he's the first body champion.

Delaney beat the lineal roster. Period, he's a black fighter, yes, but like Molyneaux he comes before the colorline. He's not Godfrey let alone Wills. He's the real deal best in the division. Not by ducking, by beating the Allen brothers during a time when there are no other names.

It is more a case of a very small pool in 1863-64.

Or to say that differently. Delaney hits the marks for cleared the division, that's not disputable, he's not a second place cleared the division or a lower tier fighter of any form. What he is, is a man who cleared a division in two fights because the division was actually that small at that time. In England.

I'm not saying men did not duck him. They did. They were not the champion, they were not considered claimants or good fighters even, they were just guys not named Allen in a time when the only fighters in the division in England that were good were named Allen and Delaney. Robert couldn't move on from the Allen brothers because he got too popular too quickly for cannon fodder opponents and was too foreign and black for the backers to throw him and Allen a title fight.

So what came of it was everyone agreed Delaney was the best and the Allen boys were still very good, but, no one not named Allen would take the whooping and even with the Allens all he could to was get normal fights because no one wanted to back, or pay for, a title fight.

He really only had to beat Harry and Tom to be the best in England. But Mendoza only had to beat a single man and no one cries over that and Spring was simply given his title. No one cries over that. So having cleared a very small division makes him a bad choice for this list of best division clearers, but, not excluded. He fits, he absolutely cleared.

On title-less champions. James Burke never got the title from Jem Ward. Similar situation, everyone agreed Burke was best but no one wanted to pay for the title fight. Historians long after death award Burke his place in Lineal.


So what we have here buds, is a strong case for a champion attached to man who cleared the lineal division. Ain't nothing colored about Delany's fights but Delany, ain;t no color line, this ain't one of those.

[billeau2]

Oh buddy, you're not ready for Delaney

You're going to like this, I think.

Sanctioned weight divisions do not exist in the 1860s.

Lineal in the 1860s, of course, lineal is a thing we applied after the fact. Lineal is exactly what I'm talking about.

Lineal, being unsanctioned champions from before the time of sanctioned championships and weight divisions, are absolutely accepted. You already accept them. Everyone from Sullivan to Dempsey in the HW division. Sullivan to Johnson if you're going to be absolute, but no one recognized the IBU. To clarify, should be obvious but JIC, I do not mean Dempsey is the last non-body champion, I mean he's the first body champion.

Delaney beat the lineal roster. Period, he's a black fighter, yes, but like Molyneaux he comes before the colorline. He's not Godfrey let alone Wills. He's the real deal best in the division. Not by ducking, by beating the Allen brothers during a time when there are no other names.

It is more a case of a very small pool in 1863-64.

Or to say that differently. Delaney hits the marks for cleared the division, that's not disputable, he's not a second place cleared the division or a lower tier fighter of any form. What he is, is a man who cleared a division in two fights because the division was actually that small at that time. In England.

I'm not saying men did not duck him. They did. They were not the champion, they were not considered claimants or good fighters even, they were just guys not named Allen in a time when the only fighters in the division in England that were good were named Allen and Delaney. Robert couldn't move on from the Allen brothers because he got too popular too quickly for cannon fodder opponents and was too foreign and black for the backers to throw him and Allen a title fight.

So what came of it was everyone agreed Delaney was the best and the Allen boys were still very good, but, no one not named Allen would take the whooping and even with the Allens all he could to was get normal fights because no one wanted to back, or pay for, a title fight.

He really only had to beat Harry and Tom to be the best in England. But Mendoza only had to beat a single man and no one cries over that and Spring was simply given his title. No one cries over that. So having cleared a very small division makes him a bad choice for this list of best division clearers, but, not excluded. He fits, he absolutely cleared.

On title-less champions. James Burke never got the title from Jem Ward. Similar situation, everyone agreed Burke was best but no one wanted to pay for the title fight. Historians long after death award Burke his place in Lineal.


So what we have here buds, is a strong case for a champion attached to man who cleared the lineal division. Ain't nothing colored about Delany's fights but Delany, ain;t no color line, this ain't one of those.

Ahhh! Ok. I see where you are going with this. Makes perfect sense. There were titles before the sanctioning bodies... there were champions recognized. It was done in a manner with less intrusion from those who never fought, and were really just middle men with the power of institutions behind them... Not fans, not fighters... Not scribes (ring magazine, Jack London, etc)...

Understood!