Best MW Champion since Marvin Hagler?

[IronDanHamza]

If that's the case I would pick both Toney and Hopkins over Golovkin.

I'd pick the majority of the list over Toney let alone the likes of Hopkins and Golovkin.

Toney has next to no chance against Hopkins.

[ShoulderRoll]

Nah.

Toney has draws against unranked fighters, a bad loss to an unranked fighter, bad performances against unranked fighters multiple times, no longevity, that all go against him.

Golovkin will get ranked highly the same way Hopkins is just to a lesser degree. Longevity in a weak era.

Toney never see's a Top 10 list at MW, ever. Golovkin likely will.

Toney does have official wins against Nunn, McCallum, and Reggie Johnson at middleweight though.

All better than any of Golovkin's official wins at the weight. In my opinion.

[IronDanHamza]

Toney does have official wins against Nunn, McCallum, and Reggie Johnson at middleweight though.

All better than any of Golovkin's official wins at the weight. In my opinion.

Yeah and you could argue he's 1-2 in those.

He also has a draw with an unranked opponent, a loss to an unranked opponent and a other arguable loss's to unranked opponents. These things matter.

Toney has never seen the inside of a MW Top 10 list for a reason.

You were saying Golovkin's arguable loss to Jacobs needs to be considered earlier. What about Toney's actual loss to Tiberi? What about his arguable loss's to Williams and Sosa? All 3 of which weren't even ranked. Jacobs atleast was a Top 3 MW.

[joseph5620]

I'd pick the majority of the list over Toney let alone the likes of Hopkins and Golovkin.

Toney has next to no chance against Hopkins.

I wouldn't so that's where we disagree. I've seen Toney beat fighters like McCallum and Jirov. The only wins Golovkin has over fighters on that level are in fantasy fights. Nothing in his career indicates he beats Toney.

[IronDanHamza]

I wouldn't so that's where we disagree. I've seen Toney beat fighters like McCallum and Jirov. The only wins Golovkin has over fighters on that level are in fantasy fights. Nothing in his career indicates he beats Toney.

Most think Golovkin beat Canelo. So there's that.

Jirov was at Crusier not don't know why that's relevant and Jirov is a nothing fighter anyway. Golovkin has better wins than that of Jirov.

Toney lost to lesser fights than Golovkin at MW, lost to lesser fights than everyone the list actually. No reason to think most of those guys couldn't do it either.

[ShoulderRoll]

Yeah and you could argue he's 1-2 in those.

He also has a draw with an unranked opponent, a loss to an unranked opponent and a other arguable loss's to unranked opponents. These things matter.

Toney has never seen the inside of a MW Top 10 list for a reason.

You were saying Golovkin's arguable loss to Jacobs needs to be considered earlier. What about Toney's actual loss to Tiberi? What about his arguable loss's to Williams and Sosa? All 3 of which weren't even ranked. Jacobs atleast was a Top 3 MW.

If we're talking official resumes then "arguable" doesn't enter into the official wins and losses.

If we go beyond the resumes then yeah, it's fine to bring in Daniel Jacobs or Dave Tiberi.

[IronDanHamza]

If we're talking official resumes and official wins then "arguable" doesn't enter into it.

If we go beyond the resumes then yeah, it's fine to bring in Daniel Jacobs or Dave Tiberi.

You're the one who brought it in initially

By the way Dave Tiberi isn't "arguable". That is a loss and everyone knows it including Toney himself who admits that he lost.

If we're talking arguable loss's then we can talk about Williams, Sosa, Johnson, McCallum 1 and 2

[ShoulderRoll]

You're the one who brought it in initially

By the way Dave Tiberi isn't "arguable". That is a loss and everyone knows it including Toney himself who admits that he lost.

If we're talking arguable loss's then we can talk about Williams, Sosa, Johnson, McCallum 1 and 2

I wasn't addressing you specifically when I brought it in initially.

There's different arguments being put forth from different people in this thread, some focused on pure resume and some on who we think would win head-to-head in imaginary fights on their best nights.

The resume says that Toney won a close decision against Tiberi. It's not an official loss.

[IronDanHamza]

I wasn't addressing you specifically when I brought it in initially.

There's different arguments being put forth from different people in this thread, some focused on pure resume and some on who we think would win head-to-head in imaginary fights on their best nights.

The resume says that Toney won a close decision against Tiberi. It's not an official loss.

Except it is a loss.

The Whitaker-Chavez, Whitaker-Ramirez, Santa Cruz-Casamayor, Lewis-Holyfield's of the world that's of the same ilk as Toney-Tiberi, the CLEAR loss's. Are included as such on a resume. When a fighter is literally dominated and lose's the decision it's included on their resume. Everyone includes Chavez on Whitaker's resume because he clearly won it, same way with Toney and Tiberi.

You weren't addressing me but you still used it negatively for Golovkin. Why isn't the same standard used for Toney when his multiple examples are significantly worse?

[ShoulderRoll]

Except it is a loss.

The Whitaker-Chavez, Whitaker-Ramirez, Santa Cruz-Casamayor, Lewis-Holyfield's of the world that's of the same ilk as Toney-Tiberi, the CLEAR loss's. Are included as such on a resume. When a fighter is literally dominated and lose's the decision it's included on their resume. Everyone includes Chavez on Whitaker's resume because he clearly won it, same way with Toney and Tiberi.

You weren't addressing me but you still used it negatively for Golovkin. Why isn't the same standard used for Toney when his multiple examples are significantly worse?

By all means if we count Daniel Jacobs against Golovkin then we can count whoever you want against Toney. I have no problem with that, just as long as the same criteria is used