Wladimir Klitschko

[LondonRingRules]

An "ascending" Jameel McCline is still not comparable to Joe Frazier in any capacity. While we're one the subject, what exactly was Jameel McCline ascending to? Mediocrity? You make it as if Jameel McCline actually achieved something of note. Just how would he keep Frazier off of him? He has no jab of note, sure he always claimed he was going to use his length and pump the jab but rarely did he. He was particularly clumsy..hell, let's face it Jameel McCline has never been any good. Joe Frazier would stay on him and chop him down to size. Frazier KO RD 7.

I stand by earlier assertion of Peter/Quarry.....

A fighter of Byrd's class? What exactly did he do of note to be considered in Liston's class in the pantheon of all-time greats? Liston would catch up to Byrd and KO him, brutally I might add.

Remind me again why you keep bringing up Lennox Lewis?

** Jumbo Cummings wasn't in Joe's class either. Nor was Ron Stander.

Like I mentioned, you lack context which is why your immature lists keep changing as context is slowly being added on in layers. Maybe you'll firm up a decade from now, but right now you're as shaky as a bowl of jello.

McCline turned pro after a stint in prison, getting off to a shaky 2-2-1 start. He was 25 yrs old with no amateur background save maybe some prison bouts and his two losses and a draw against more experienced fighters, his wins against fellow novices. He then goes undefeated for 7 yrs until Wlad KOs him. He had consecutively beaten King Ipitan, Alfred Cole, Micheal Grant, Lance Whitaker and Shannon Briggs to get to that point. Cole the former cruiser champ, Grant highly rated coming off his sole loss to Lewis, Whitaker still in ascendency with some good wins, and the hot and cold ever dangerous former title contender to Lewis, Briggs.

After the Wlad loss, he rebounds with a KO of the still well regarded Shufford and a KO of undefeated Cedric Boswell, and then knocks down Byrd in his 2nd title challenge on the way to dropping a hotly contested split.

Stander was able to outmuscle Joe and hurt him in the early going before running out of steam. I don't see pre Ali Joe needing more than 2 rds to dispose of Stander, so clearly something was amiss with Joe who of course drops his title to Foreman the next bout.'. Laid back Bugs goes the distance with Joe before his Ali rematch in a very close fight. Bugs a big man in his day dwarfed by McCline who is a fundamentally sound boxer/puncher with a good chin and durability. His weakness was stamina which sees him fade in close fights which is why I made Frazier a slight fav over him, or did you forget again?

Indeed, your still developing adolescent noggin forgets the exercise at hand, the matching consecutive best opponents of Ali and Wlad to the point of their 33rd birthday, excluding Foreman per YOU.

McCline happens to be next in the queue sweetie and he could beat Frazier using his size and strength well as I don't think Joe had enough in the well by then to exploit his stamina issues, but AGAIN, I made Joe the slight fav.

You poor silly little dear, the ring don't care how great you are, you'll be exposed if you hang on too long or get mixed up with the mob. Greater fighters being beaten by lesser fighters overflow the ranks of the IBHOF, but you can't be bothered to consider that.

I bring Lewis up because he was the very big, strong, boxer/puncher of his day with a jab like Liston's that he used to bludgeon and otherwise control people. He didn't fancy having to match footspeed with a tricky lefty while hitting the ghosts of all the angles Byrd gives him, so Lewis sold his belt off rather than face his mandatory.

That's a lotta respect for the risk/reward proposition that Byrd was, and like it or not, if Norton and other like heavies make the HOF, then so will Byrd eventually, as will Moorer since they are seen as groundbreakers as lefties are finally starting to get their due and their shots.

Liston looked very ill prepared chasing Ali around the ring in Miami, and that the inexperienced Ali, not a savvy experienced lefty ring technician that Byrd was.

No, I stand by MY earlier assertion of Peter/Quarry.....

.........wait..............what time is it...................IT'S HAWK TIME........

[GJC]

** Jumbo Cummings wasn't in Joe's class either. Nor was Ron Stander.
Stander was able to outmuscle Joe and hurt him in the early going before running out of steam. I don't see pre Ali Joe needing more than 2 rds to dispose of Stander, so clearly something was amiss with Joe who of course drops his title to Foreman the next bout.'. Laid back Bugs goes the distance with Joe before his Ali rematch in a very close fight. Bugs a big man in his day dwarfed by McCline who is a fundamentally sound boxer/puncher with a good chin and durability.

Jumbo Cummings got a draw with an old Frazier coming out of a five year lay off. Ron Stander was more running out of blood rather than steam, Frazier was never the quickest starter even in his prime. Stander lasted longer than 2rounds he lasted 5 rounds. Bugner fought the fight of his life against Frazier, Bugner was a vey good defensive boxer who was a ranked contender for quite a few years. That said the fight he had with Frazier wasn't close by any stretch of the imagination. Still glad you can see that Frazier might squeeze past these morden day greats.

[GJC]

if Norton and other like heavies make the HOF, then so will Byrd eventually, as will Moorer since they are seen as groundbreakers as lefties are finally starting to get their due and their shots.

Well they are not groundbreakers, they join the other as yet un-named southpaws that always gave Ali, Liston and Lewis trouble.

[StarshipTrooper]

Well they are not groundbreakers, they join the other as yet un-named southpaws that always gave Ali, Liston and Lewis trouble.

Point of fact: Getting into the HOF in boxing is the equivelent of getting a nice pen at the company awards banquet. If a fighter is even remotely popular he'll get in the HOF.....All one needs is at minimum a small fan base. Getting in the HOF does NOT make a fighter an ATG by ANY stretch of the imagination. This ain't Cooperstown.

Poet

[hayemakeme]

Call me crazy but Wlad used to be a lot different. Later in his career he resembles more of the typical eastern european fighter, but earlier he used to mix his punches up really well and I miss that. If he mixes it up well against Haye I can see him winning big, but he's gotta do more than this jab jab overhand right business that we've been seeing in every fight - he's capable of more than that.

[Hawkins]

** Jumbo Cummings wasn't in Joe's class either. Nor was Ron Stander.

And Jumbo Cummings has what to do with this discussion? Frazier was pushing 38 and had been out of the ring for over 5 years for that fight... plus Joe KOed Stander in 5. The point being?

Like I mentioned, you lack context which is why your immature lists keep changing as context is slowly being added on in layers. Maybe you'll firm up a decade from now, but right now you're as shaky as a bowl of jello.

I lack context? You have yet to demonstrate any win that Wlad had that was comparable to Ali's victory over prime-Foreman. Loosen the Depends a little and let a little blood flow into that decrepit raisin of a brain you have.

McCline turned pro after a stint in prison, getting off to a shaky 2-2-1 start. He was 25 yrs old with no amateur background save maybe some prison bouts and his two losses and a draw against more experienced fighters, his wins against fellow novices. He then goes undefeated for 7 yrs until Wlad KOs him. He had consecutively beaten King Ipitan, Alfred Cole, Micheal Grant, Lance Whitaker and Shannon Briggs to get to that point. Cole the former cruiser champ, Grant highly rated coming off his sole loss to Lewis, Whitaker still in ascendency with some good wins, and the hot and cold ever dangerous former title contender to Lewis, Briggs.

So the fact that McCline was able to win bouts against equally big, uncoordinated, unskilled and fat competition means what? Shannon Briggs, Goofi and Michael Grant may be his best wins but neither of them were ever anything more than glorified sparring partners in their best days. they were made contenders because of their size...nothing more, nothing less.

Alfred Cole? Is this the same Al Cole that got schooled by near 40 Tim Witherspoon? Thought so. The mere fact that you mention these wins in an attempt to legitimize McCline is telling of the material you have to work with. All of these heavyweights are trash in comparison to the era you are comparing them to.

McCline may be bigger but he lacks the skill and fortitude to match up with any version of Joe. Any version of Joe will chop down McCline and KO his overrated ass.

After the Wlad loss, he rebounds with a KO of the still well regarded Shufford and a KO of undefeated Cedric Boswell, and then knocks down Byrd in his 2nd title challenge on the way to dropping a hotly contested split.

Stander was able to outmuscle Joe and hurt him in the early going before running out of steam. I don't see pre Ali Joe needing more than 2 rds to dispose of Stander, so clearly something was amiss with Joe who of course drops his title to Foreman the next bout.'. Laid back Bugs goes the distance with Joe before his Ali rematch in a very close fight. Bugs a big man in his day dwarfed by McCline who is a fundamentally sound boxer/puncher with a good chin and durability. His weakness was stamina which sees him fade in close fights which is why I made Frazier a slight fav over him, or did you forget again?

Did you just call McCline fundamentally sound? That should effectively negate anything else you have to say on this....

Indeed, your still developing adolescent noggin forgets the exercise at hand, the matching consecutive best opponents of Ali and Wlad to the point of their 33rd birthday, excluding Foreman per YOU.

I said Ali's win over Foreman is better than Wlad's entire career of wins. You have yet to prove me wrong.

McCline happens to be next in the queue sweetie and he could beat Frazier using his size and strength well as I don't think Joe had enough in the well by then to exploit his stamina issues, but AGAIN, I made Joe the slight fav.

That's the thing with McCline isn't it? Could could could could could...he coulda done alot but he never did. He coulda been champ but he was never able to live up to even an iota of the hype heaped on him. Regardless of the reasoning....he was never able to cross the line from chump to champ.

You poor silly little dear, the ring don't care how great you are, you'll be exposed if you hang on too long or get mixed up with the mob. Greater fighters being beaten by lesser fighters overflow the ranks of the IBHOF, but you can't be bothered to consider that.

I bring Lewis up because he was the very big, strong, boxer/puncher of his day with a jab like Liston's that he used to bludgeon and otherwise control people. He didn't fancy having to match footspeed with a tricky lefty while hitting the ghosts of all the angles Byrd gives him, so Lewis sold his belt off rather than face his mandatory.

That's a lotta respect for the risk/reward proposition that Byrd was, and like it or not, if Norton and other like heavies make the HOF, then so will Byrd eventually, as will Moorer since they are seen as groundbreakers as lefties are finally starting to get their due and their shots.

Liston looked very ill prepared chasing Ali around the ring in Miami, and that the inexperienced Ali, not a savvy experienced lefty ring technician that Byrd was.

No, I stand by MY earlier assertion of Peter/Quarry.....

.........wait..............what time is it...................IT'S HAWK TIME........

No matter what you say about Byrd the fact is he would get demolished against Liston. Compare him to Liston all you like but the fact remains that Lewis lacked the killer instinct that Liston had in spades. Liston would go after Byrd where as Lewis would more than likely go into "Pugilist Specialist" mode. I like Lewis, but you cannot compare him to the stone cold killer that Liston was. Bad comparison on your part com padre.

Hall Of Fame? we know how credible the hall of fame is.

I find it funny you keep leveling the immature label because of the fact that my lists change. What's your excuse? Senility? You leave both Holmes and Ali from your entire list yet have the audacity to criticize someone else?

Your conservative Texas bias is a bit hypocritical grandpa....laud Wlad's safety first style but decry Ali's style at the same time? Ridiculous. :gay:

[Special K]

He's a white East European, that instantly loses him respect, plus he's been stopped three times so must be a bum. Even his brother has no or little respect in the HW game because of a cut and dislocated shoulder. Only a 50-0 record (100% KO's) would get either of them a smidgeon of respect. If Wlad smashes Haye KO2 he will still get no credit. He can't win, wrong colour and nationality...

[joe strong]

with his amateur pedigree & gold medal win there is no excuse for losing to journeyman purrity.why was he losing to puritty after 20 fights? He should have been knocking guys like purrity out by his 8th fight.he's was protected for years in Europe.has anyone heard the rumor that vitalis next defence is vs Holyfield in September? I read that in an import magazine at chapters book store.

[JAB5239]

He's a white East European, that instantly loses him respect, plus he's been stopped three times so must be a bum. Even his brother has no or little respect in the HW game because of a cut and dislocated shoulder. Only a 50-0 record (100% KO's) would get either of them a smidgeon of respect. If Wlad smashes Haye KO2 he will still get no credit. He can't win, wrong colour and nationality...

Your style of posting.........It would go over great on NSB. Here....not so much.

[LondonRingRules]

No matter what you say about Byrd the fact is he would get demolished against Liston. Compare him to Liston all you like but the fact remains that Lewis lacked the killer instinct that Liston had in spades. Liston would go after Byrd where as Lewis would more than likely go into "Pugilist Specialist" mode. I like Lewis, but you cannot compare him to the stone cold killer that Liston was. Bad comparison on your part com padre.

Hall Of Fame? we know how credible the hall of fame is.

I find it funny you keep leveling the immature label because of the fact that my lists change. What's your excuse? Senility? You leave both Holmes and Ali from your entire list yet have the audacity to criticize someone else?

Your conservative Texas bias is a bit hypocritical grandpa....laud Wlad's safety first style but decry Ali's style at the same time? Ridiculous. :gay:

** Nice little gay icon you got there sweetie pie.

Wlad doesn't collect disputed decisions like lint. He knocks people out. There is a method to produce an conclusive, concussive final end.

His record is open to legit plaudits and critiques just as is Ali's.

It ain't fact that 40 yr old Sonny is gonna demolish Byrd, it's unsupported conjecture. He never won a bout against a top heavy after his demolition of the heavily padded and protected Patterson who has my utmost respect for breaking with Cus's wishes and fighting the beast. Floyd fought him head on, not Byrd's style.

A savvy LH named Monte Marty Maybelle Marshall busted Liston's jaw and made himself otherwise unavailable to be killed and took a decision from him near his prime. Of course Byrd got tracked down and blasted out by Ike, a bigger, more fearsome Liston, but Byrd also took a decision against Tua and fought well against other big men, getting most of those decisions.

Facts are you don't know facts from fantastical farces that you dream up in your soft still under construction noggin......