Wladimir Klitschko

[them_apples]

** What kind of "When did you stop beating your wife?" questions are those?

I said he was near prime for his Marshall defeat due to him being IN his physical prime and starting to enter his boxing prime with back to back wins over Summerlin. What part of near prime don't you understand?

Wlad was only 22 when he lost to Puritty, not a traditional prime age for big heavies. As I mentioned, it was down to bad management with that being his 25th fight coming off his first 2 years and just 3 weeks after his last fight. A 12 rounder against a massive, strong, very durable journeyman who's fought all the big names in the heavy ranks. Wlad was skinny, overworked and overtrained for the fight and had never been near 12 rds before. He was winning the shutout over 10. Very poor management and corner work. Fight not disimilar to Cooney falling apart in the 13th against Holmes without taking any punches. Boom, no more steam left.

Ali had never been past 10 rds in his life until he potshotted the sick Patterson around the ring in his 2nd defense. Biggest guy he'd been in the ring against was 225lb Duke Sabedong who was none to impressed with Ali and took him the 10 rd distance. Love to see that fight.

Ali vs Wlad would be great, but who wins depends on which version of each turns up. Ali more inconsistant than Wlad. Wlad would've handled all of Ali's opposition and schedule pretty easy up until Frazier. Guys like Banks and Cooper wouldn't be knocking him down and he'd KO Jones. Wlad also handled Byrd quite easily, a small, very quick and elusive heavy like Ali.

I don't see anyone on Wlad's schedule who would trouble young Clay until Byrd whom I would pick to beat him because of the Mildenberger performance in his prime. Byrd much trickier southpaw with more credentials. Shultz and Barrett were prime solid contenders and would've been good scraps.

I question whether Ali could maintain that early pace of Wlad's schedule that gives Wlad a fight every month for 2 yrs against fighters much bigger and stronger than Ali used to facing. If he has an off day against Banks, Cooper, and Jones, much easier to come back against a 180 lber than a 240lber.

As to the other ninny claiming Byrd had no credentials, well, he was a storied amateur and Olympic middleweight silver medalist whom nobody wanted to fight because of his style. Going into Ike, his last six opponents record avg was 24-9, including the massive Puritty who's ended up being on most heavy contender records, former title contender Cooper who was just as hot and cold and relevant as he was against UnHoly, and the unbeaten prospect Eliser Castillo.

Byrd had also shut out Phil Jackson who contended for Lewis's title the year before.

Say what you will about Ike, Tua, and Byrd, but this in the day when young contenders weren't afraid to fight each other or anyone who dared step into the ring with them.

maybe I misunderstood you, but chris byrd beating Ali? that soft cruiserweight?

I agree Ali was inconsistent, which sort of makes it hard when you pit him up in Fantasy fights, but pick him on a good day and he knocks Wlad out.

The Ali that fought Frazier the first time (even though he lost) or the one that fought Liston, those were solid versions of Ali that I don't think Wlad could handle.

I might get heat for saying Ali was in good shape for the first Frazier fight, but I believe he would have lost the third fight, and Frazier just wasn't as good in the second fight.

Either way, he went toe to toe with Frazier, a tougher mother fker, Wlad isn't going to be able to deal with a guy as determined as Ali.

[GJC]

What part of near prime don't you understand?

Do you not think Liston was in his prime around 1959? I just don't count 5 years as near

Wlad was only 22 when he lost to Puritty, not a traditional prime age for big heavies.

I'm struggling to think of a fighter who would beat a 22yo Clay or many that would beat a 22yo Tyson come to that.

As I mentioned, it was down to bad management with that being his 25th fight coming off his first 2 years and just 3 weeks after his last fight.

His last fight which lasted a round. Most of his fights were lasting around a couple of rounds so I wouldn't have said he was being overworked. A lot of fighters keep busy early days knocking over tomato cans in a round.

I don't see anyone on Wlad's schedule who would trouble young Clay until Byrd whom I would pick to beat him because of the Mildenberger performance in his prime. Byrd much trickier southpaw with more credentials. Shultz and Barrett were prime solid contenders and would've been good scraps.

Don't doubt that Byrd is a better fighter than Midenberger but lets get the Midenberger fight into perspective, he won 2 maybe 3 rounds.

I question whether Ali could maintain that early pace of Wlad's schedule that gives Wlad a fight every month for 2 yrs against fighters much bigger and stronger than Ali used to facing.

Wlad had more fights because he knocked out tomato cans,Ali fought more rounds in 2 years. Ali Wasn't a knockout specialist so was never likely to walk up to a lump and knock him out with one punch


So to summarise you have Wlad and Byrd beating Ali?

[StarshipTrooper]

Don't doubt that Byrd is a better fighter than Midenberger but lets get the Midenberger fight into perspective, he won 2 maybe 3 rounds.

Bear in mind LRR probably scored that fight for Midenberger. He's also famous for saying Earnie Terell gave Ali ALL sorts of problems Yeah right: Problems like "do I ask Earnie 'what's my name?' after I punch him five or six times in the face or wait until after the next time I punch him five or six times in the face?"

Poet

[GJC]

Bear in mind LRR probably scored that fight for Midenberger. He's also famous for saying Earnie Terell gave Ali ALL sorts of problems Yeah right: Problems like "do I ask Earnie 'what's my name?' after I punch him five or six times in the face or wait until after the next time I punch him five or six times in the face?"

Poet

But Terell's bigger, sure it wasn't a hometown decision?

[Hawkins]

Bear in mind LRR probably scored that fight for Midenberger. He's also famous for saying Earnie Terell gave Ali ALL sorts of problems Yeah right: Problems like "do I ask Earnie 'what's my name?' after I punch him five or six times in the face or wait until after the next time I punch him five or six times in the face?"

Poet

I laughed so hard at this I got choked on my Sobe... that sad part is that is exactly something LRR has said and alluded to.

[LondonRingRules]

Do you not think Liston was in his prime around 1959? I just don't count 5 years as near

I'm struggling to think of a fighter who would beat a 22yo Clay or many that would beat a 22yo Tyson come to that.

His last fight which lasted a round. Most of his fights were lasting around a couple of rounds so I wouldn't have said he was being overworked. A lot of fighters keep busy early days knocking over tomato cans in a round.

Don't doubt that Byrd is a better fighter than Midenberger but lets get the Midenberger fight into perspective, he won 2 maybe 3 rounds.

Wlad had more fights because he knocked out tomato cans,Ali fought more rounds in 2 years. Ali Wasn't a knockout specialist so was never likely to walk up to a lump and knock him out with one punch

So to summarise you have Wlad and Byrd beating Ali?

** Sunny Jim, it's like this, don't matter what I think, it's what I know that counts.

Whereas you're more a stream conciousness type of guy, spouting off random nonsense. Liston beat prized prospect Summerlin twice who a short time later knocks Folley's applecart over, the first ever. Liston was in his prime years and progressing rapidly, near ideal prime. Entering his actual comprehensive prime years was delayed by incarceration and having to reset for a couple of years upon release. Way you got it worded his prime was only 1959, just silly.

Seein' how it's arguable that Jones and Cooper did beat the 21 yr old Clay who couldn't keep his rump off the canvas coming up, it's easy for me to imagine him at 22 being beat. Tyson is the only 22 yr old heavy in history that could be proven as close to unbeatable as any fighter ever has been.

Hard to believe you still ain't figured out its bad for a fighter to stay in training for potentially 94 rds all year. Sure, some oldtimers did it, but that's why their records are *******ly sprinkled with losses. Many of Wlad's "tomato cans" had excellent records and many era champs and contenders found in their records beside Wlad.

Sunny Jim, you reveal yourself to disparage great fighters when you disparage the lessers they have to fight. Very typical American blowhard position of everyone not #1 is a loser.

My little friend, even Cosell about choked on his toupee in the Mildi fight he was so worried about Ali. Great finish by Ali, but Byrd is several classes above Mildi and I would pick him over a prime Ali. He never had to face the line up of lefties Wlad has faced.

To summerise Sunny Jim, it's you that has me having Wlad beating Ali. I'm not nearly so simpleminded as to make such an unproven assertion. Ever hear of odds Jim? Most every fighter who's existed was given chances by odds makers to beat the other fighter and the odds always shifting. Match Ali/Wlad up by age or by consecutive title fights it would be back and forth with the current edge in the series going to Wlad. He dominates boxers and has to take care with big sluggers, just the opposite of Ali who struggled with boxers and was able to handle the sluggers era save Frazier.

I see someone let out the little banty roosters that crowd around you, kicking up their heels and crowing nonsense. Nice that you found some feathered friends Jim, now you take care ol' Mr. Fox don't think you to be a friend of the feathers............

[GJC]

Way you got it worded his prime was only 1959, just silly.

No keep up, I said from 59-62. Silly is saying a fighter is near prime after 7 fights.

Seein' how it's arguable that Jones and Cooper did beat the 21 yr old Clay who couldn't keep his rump off the canvas coming up, it's easy for me to imagine him at 22 being beat.

Probably only arguable by you and yes I'm sure you could imagine that. 22,32 or probably even 42 Byrd or Wlad don't have enough to beat him.

Sunny Jim, you reveal yourself to disparage great fighters when you disparage the lessers they have to fight. Very typical American blowhard position of everyone not #1 is a loser.

So it's ok for you to disparage the fighters that Ali has beat? Also I'm not American but don't let that fact get in the way, nothing else has.

My little friend, even Cosell about choked on his toupee in the Mildi fight he was so worried about Ali. Great finish by Ali, but Byrd is several classes above Mildi and I would pick him over a prime Ali. He never had to face the line up of lefties Wlad has faced.

ok how many rounds did you have "Mildi" winning?
He fought 2 southpaws and lost probably 2 or 3 rounds in total.
So you believe that Byrd will beat a prime Ali???

To summerise Sunny Jim, it's you that has me having Wlad beating Ali. I'm not nearly so simpleminded as to make such an unproven assertion.

You have Byrd beating Ali and it sounds to me that you favour Wlad over Ali.
So clarify then, Wlad would lose to Byrd but beat Ali then?

I see someone let out the little banty roosters that crowd around you, kicking up their heels and crowing nonsense. Nice that you found some feathered friends Jim, now you take care ol' Mr. Fox don't think you to be a friend of the feathers............

Don't need a crowd around me, your arguments don't stand up is the reason no one is agreeing with you. What is the problem with Ali, is it because he is a bit "uppity" for your neck of the woods?

[j]

some interesting arguments mostly. well, except for people with that follower type personality.

i am considered to be pretty neutral in regards to historical matchups. for me, in the case of ali vs w klitschko, it is hard for me to imagine ali putting a beating to wladimir. i just cant see wlad falling into any trap ali could set, or ali having an easy time getting past a highly accurate, fast and agile rifle of a jab that wlad has. not to mention that his right hand, when committed, has as much power as any heavyweight has had.

ali does have a pedigree in bicycling. to me, his outside movement looks more like what dlh was accused of in - well u know what fight i mean.

but, i can see how ali is tricky. and ali does have some pop. he is, however, also a very small guy comparitively to opponents who wladimir has dismantled.

btw, wlad was not "ktfo" in a purrity fight. he was never knocked down in that fight. the sanders fight, legit loss - that happens when u dont take training seriously as u think your opponent is nothing. and brewster - that is a circumstance i am willing to side with the klitschko camp on.

yeah, i consider both bros as top fighters in an ATG way. wlad has more accomplishments though. both are clearly throwback fighters who like to fight as often as they can.

[j]

i think a byrd vs ali fight would be closer than some people think. byrd was never afraid to fight anyone - just look at who he fought. ali, well, it kinda looked like he was a few times. some of these moments from shows where he is face to face with his opponents stick in my mind. but, credit for fighting most of the baddest guys in his time - just as byrd did though. i think ali's talking is actually an aid to ali to pump him up and prepare him for a fight.

i would have loved to see a byrd vs ali fight - with neutral refs of course. people forget how crooked boxing can be sometimes.

[RightCross94]

** Sunny Jim, it's like this, don't matter what I think, it's what I know that counts.

Whereas you're more a stream conciousness type of guy, spouting off random nonsense. Liston beat prized prospect Summerlin twice who a short time later knocks Folley's applecart over, the first ever. Liston was in his prime years and progressing rapidly, near ideal prime. Entering his actual comprehensive prime years was delayed by incarceration and having to reset for a couple of years upon release. Way you got it worded his prime was only 1959, just silly.

Seein' how it's arguable that Jones and Cooper did beat the 21 yr old Clay who couldn't keep his rump off the canvas coming up, it's easy for me to imagine him at 22 being beat. Tyson is the only 22 yr old heavy in history that could be proven as close to unbeatable as any fighter ever has been.

Hard to believe you still ain't figured out its bad for a fighter to stay in training for potentially 94 rds all year. Sure, some oldtimers did it, but that's why their records are *******ly sprinkled with losses. Many of Wlad's "tomato cans" had excellent records and many era champs and contenders found in their records beside Wlad.

Sunny Jim, you reveal yourself to disparage great fighters when you disparage the lessers they have to fight. Very typical American blowhard position of everyone not #1 is a loser.

My little friend, even Cosell about choked on his toupee in the Mildi fight he was so worried about Ali. Great finish by Ali, but Byrd is several classes above Mildi and I would pick him over a prime Ali. He never had to face the line up of lefties Wlad has faced.

To summerise Sunny Jim, it's you that has me having Wlad beating Ali. I'm not nearly so simpleminded as to make such an unproven assertion. Ever hear of odds Jim? Most every fighter who's existed was given chances by odds makers to beat the other fighter and the odds always shifting. Match Ali/Wlad up by age or by consecutive title fights it would be back and forth with the current edge in the series going to Wlad. He dominates boxers and has to take care with big sluggers, just the opposite of Ali who struggled with boxers and was able to handle the sluggers era save Frazier.

I see someone let out the little banty roosters that crowd around you, kicking up their heels and crowing nonsense. Nice that you found some feathered friends Jim, now you take care ol' Mr. Fox don't think you to be a friend of the feathers............

the parts in bold made me laugh, you truly are a biased idiot with a painfully obvious agenda against ali