Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Ivich]

I've been looking for this quote and finally found it. And yes I blame Johnson. Langford was the best available contender. It matters not that he had beat him before. Langford had earned a rematch and was screwed out of it in my opinion.

“Nobody will pay to see two black men fight for the title,” Johnson said However, when Johnson grew weary of Australian boxing promoter Hugh “Huge Deal”’ McIntosh’s efforts to arrange a match with Langford, he admitted that he had no wish to face Langford again. “I don’t want to fight that little smoke,” said Johnson. “He’s got a chance to win against anyone in the world. I’m the first black champion and I’m going to be the last.”

But you ignore the fact that Johnson had signed to fight both Langford and McVey for McIntosh and that it was not Johnson who pulled out but McIntosh because of pressure brought to bear on him by religious groups and Aussie public opinion,Therefore if you want to blame someone for the fights not happening blame McIntosh not Johnson this is all verifiable you only have to read Pollacks 2 volume bio of Johnson,he has primary sourced quotes and news articles by the ton in them.You on the other hand have an unverified quote which you have accepted unreservedly because it suits your narrative.

[Willie Pep 229]

What are you going to do about fights in which neither participant weighed in> eg Johnson v O Brien.Johnson v Langford, Johnson v Battling Jim Johnson? Weigh ins for Heavyweights being a mainstay is an absolute is it not? And plain wrong eg Fitzsimmons v Jeffries2 Fitzsimmons v Corbett. Jeffries v Munroe.Jeffries v Finnegan.

Ok if you feel that way about it I won't try.

[Poet682006]

They were 3 minute rounds and McVey weighed 205lbs for that fight.Neither Johnson or McVey ever fought under LPR rules.

Says someone who's already shown he doesn't know jack shlt. Bye Princess, into the ignore bin with the rest of the Bionic Phuckheads.

[Ivich]

...and Harry Wills rated so low on many people's lists? people go crazy over Johnson's wins over Langford, Jeanette and McVae, but Wills beat these three guys multiple times.

Ive heard that Johnson beat them when they were more 'prime', but how is that so? McVae was 18-19 years old when Johnson beat him. call me crazy, but that seems pretty young, assuming they got his birth date correct.
on the other hand, Wills beat him when he McVae was 26, and then a few more times before he even turned 30. hmmm.

Jeanette is understandable, Johnson beat him when he was much younger. although I have to admit, when Johnson fought him his record looked like garbage, when Wills fought him it looked much better.

and people always say that it counts a little against Johnson that he never gave Langford a rematch, yet at the time that people wanted a rematch, Wills was fighting him again and again.

he also beat guys like Fred Fulton and Firpo, which are better wins than pretty much all of Johnson's non-colored title defences.

I dont expect him to be rated over Johnson, but how is it that Johnson gets into people's top 3, while Wills doesnt get into the top 10 at all? either lower Johnson or raise Wills, because something doesnt make sense there.
and whats more, I dont see how Dempsey could be rated higher than Wills either.

Wills beat Jeannette ONCE when Joe was 2 months off of 41 years old . Their2 other fights were recorded as drawsJeannette was 33 and 34 for those bouts. Wills beat McVey 3 times and lost to him twice no dominance was established there.

[Ivich]

Ok if you feel that way about it I won't try.

I'm just curious how you can ascertain their correct weights in fights in which neither man weighed in?

[Willie Pep 229]

I'm just curious how you can ascertain their correct weights in fights in which neither man weighed in?

Just to satisfy your curiosity - I hadn't even started to look before you announced the answer is 'no' for all to behold. Do you have any clue how pretentious sound?

[GhostofDempsey]

But you ignore the fact that Johnson had signed to fight both Langford and McVey for McIntosh and that it was not Johnson who pulled out but McIntosh because of pressure brought to bear on him by religious groups and Aussie public opinion,Therefore if you want to blame someone for the fights not happening blame McIntosh not Johnson this is all verifiable you only have to read Pollacks 2 volume bio of Johnson,he has primary sourced quotes and news articles by the ton in them.You on the other hand have an unverified quote which you have accepted unreservedly because it suits your narrative.

Johnson never offered any legit title shots to McVey, Jeannette or Langford. He could have easily fought any one of them in France or elsewhere if he really wanted to, but instead allowed Battling Jim Johnson a shot, a far inferior opponent who likely took short money for the fight. McVey, Jeannette, and Langford went to their graves insisting Johnson would not give them their shot, they were there and would have known the ins and outs of whatever alleged contracts were floated about at that time. Unless you think all three of them were liars.

[JAB5239]

But you ignore the fact that Johnson had signed to fight both Langford and McVey for McIntosh and that it was not Johnson who pulled out but McIntosh because of pressure brought to bear on him by religious groups and Aussie public opinion,Therefore if you want to blame someone for the fights not happening blame McIntosh not Johnson this is all verifiable you only have to read Pollacks 2 volume bio of Johnson,he has primary sourced quotes and news articles by the ton in them.You on the other hand have an unverified quote which you have accepted unreservedly because it suits your narrative.

It's from a 1936 article in knockout magazine called "Laughing Sam Langford, the Boston tornado and is quoted from McIntosh himself. I have no reason not to believe this or the words of Langford, McVey and Jeanette. And as Ghost of Dempsey already pointed out he allowed Battling Jim Johndon a shot, but not these far more worthy opponents. So no, this doesn't unreservedly fit my narrative. It's following the events and fact that Johnson did indeed never give these men there rightful shots at the title. To risky. And as Johnson claimed he wanted to be the first andast black champion he did everything in his power to make that happen.

[QueensburyRules]

You're wrong about Langford's weight,neither he or Johnson weighed in. Langford was estimated to weigh between 158 and 160lbs and Johnson185lbs.Langford had more fights under his belt that Johnson Johnson stated he was in the best condition of his life when he faced Jeffries for which fight he scaled 208lbs 23lbs more than the "guestimate," for the Langford fight.Moyle stated Langford's best weight was between175 and 180lbs so around 24 lbs lighter than his optimum weight.
Johnson was a fugitive he had limited options where he could earn a living. Langford and Jeannette fought the day BEFORE Johnson defended against Jim Johnson! Johnson had been stripped of his title by the French Boxing Federation prior to his fight with Battling JIm.His title was reinstated a month later.
Johnson broke his radius bone in the 3rd rd against Battling Jim which accounts for his poor showing,he was also not in anywhere near top condition.Johnson offered to defend his title against McCarty in Canada but McCarty's promoter Tommy Burns had no intention of allowing that to happen instead he wanted McCarty to fight his protege Arthur Pelkey which he did with tragic results for Luther.In closing your knowledge of this subject and its sequence of events is extremely hazy and thats putting it politely and, if I may say so your obvious dislike of Johnson has seriously coloured your judgement.

- - Heh, heh, U haze ain't my haze, and just because boxrec don't record every weight for every fight don't mean fighters weren't weighed.

Going by boxrec weights, Sam 156 and JJ 185 in 1905. In 1904 Sam highest weight had been 141 lbs. Clearly he was a growing boy who would end up weighing over 200lbs by his end, but coloured JJ didn't want to fight grown up Sam. Great defense in dodging that bullet.

Perhaps you missed my praise of JJ cross training conditioning that allowed him to take the fight to Willard for 26 rounds.

That's OK, you're excused.

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JJ fought Battling J 12/19/1913 and thusly stripped. Sam vs Joe the next day at Luna Park clearly had their fight upgraded to the French recognition of Hvy Champ.
https://boxrec.com/en/event/13054/19147

Élysée Montmartre, Paris
D
PTS 10/10
event

bout

wiki

scores
referee: Emile Maitrot
World Heavyweight Title
One ringside report said that the spectators loudly protested that the men were not fighting and demanded their money back. Jack Johnson said he injured his left arm in the third round and could not use it, but ringsiders said he used his left often and likely fractured it when both fell to the mat in the tenth round. Post-fight examination revealed a slight fracture of the radial in his left arm. In August it had been widely reported by Joe Woodman that Johnson had agreed to terms to fight Sam Langford in Paris. Weights per La Presse Tale of the Tape: 97kg Jack Johnson, 101kg Jim Johnson.

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Sam vs Joe
https://boxrec.com/en/event/57093/92244

Luna Park Arena, Paris
W
PTS 20/20
event

bout

wiki

scores
referee: Franz Reichel
World Heavyweight Title,
as recognized by the French Boxing Federation which had stripped Jack Johnson (and which shortly after stripped Langford)

[Ivich]

Just to satisfy your curiosity - I hadn't even started to look before you announced 'no' fthe answer isor all to behold. Do you have any clue how pretentious sound?

Can you point out where I said that please?