Prime Tyson could have been the best ever??

[ForemanCrossArm]

prime tyson versus pre-The Fight frazier woulda' been great.. (or, basically, Spinks Tyson versus Ali Frazier)

[Mike Tyson77]

I personally think no one ever saw a real prime Lennox,

I personally think on ever saw a real prime Tyson. He spent what would have been his best years in prsion for a crime in which their was no evidence to convict him on.


Tyson learned a lot from the Douglas fight. It made him better. Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey both got KTFO early in their careers, but it made them better.

[The Noose]

I personally think on ever saw a real prime Tyson. He spent what would have been his best years in prsion for a crime in which their was no evidence to convict him on.


Tyson learned a lot from the Douglas fight. It made him better. Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey both got KTFO early in their careers, but it made them better.

I dont think the Dougles defeat made Tyson better. It made Ruddock more confident, but Tyson still got hit too much and was wild. He then went to prison.

[The Noose]

Bobby - Nice to hear from a Tyson fan that isn't a nut hugger. Your'e right about Lewis being lazy, especially against inferior oppostion, he also liked to fight at his own pace and control the tempo. But he showed in both rematches that they were flukes. Tyson although past it, never avenged defeat against Holyfield a fight he should have won. Tyson was intimidated against Holyfield because he knew Holyfield wasn't intimidated by him. You see he lacked mental confidence and never dug deep when he had to, which is the true mark of a champion, something Lennox did on numerous occasions, surely an educated boxing fan must agree with me on this. I also think your correct in the assesment of a fight between the 2 had they met earlier when Tyson was in his prime. Either Tyson kos him by 6 or Lennox beats him on points or stops him in the last 2 rounds. Personally I think the latter, but even if Tyson had knocked him out, I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have intimidated Lennox and he would have done a number on Tyson in the rematch. I personally think no one ever saw a real prime Lennox, because in his physical prime, when he had plenty of speed and power against Ruddock he was very amaturish and had his feet to wide apart, but after being with steward for a few years was a much better boxer technically, but was a lot bigger and slower, too big for my liking. Had steward had him from turning pro, and he met Tyson at his physical peak I think we would have seen Lennox better than at any time in his career, that would have been a prime Lennox and that Lennox would have beaten Tyson, or had an even better chance of not getting knocked out by him.

Thats true. Lennox i think was faster and therefore maybe more powerful wen he was lighter.
Also i believe the McCall KO made him too cautious for a while, as did the Rahman Ko.
He should have been much more aggresive aginst McCall in the rematch and against Holyfield. Those displays didnt do much for his popularity.

I dont think Tyson could have been much better than he was in his prime. He would always have trouble as he got older because his explosive style is near impossible to maintain.

[The Iron Man]

Iron - Sorry didn't see you was from uk. Lewis took shots off Tyson,Tua,Mercer,Holyfield,Ruddock,Briggs and everyone else. Hell he even took great shots from McCall and Rahman. The McCall punch he was coming onto it which doubles it's power anyway, and he got up and it was stopped. He took great shots off Rahman which he saw and braced himself for, the one that got through was because he was being lazy and ****y and didn't see it, and if you can't see it coming, you can't brace yourself for it. Lewis was better than Tyson and would have beaten him prime or no prime. Tyson took 5 beatings in his career, Lewis took none, even well past his prime, no-one ever gave Lewis a beating. That should tell you something. Tyson was great, but Lewis was greater.

Lewis didnt take Tysons best shots, and if u watch the fight i think thats fair to say, yeh tyson got beaten and bad, but that was lewis at his best, he improved with age and that is obvious. Dont bull **** me about he was moving into a punch, you take it or you dont. The fact is Lewis got knocked out each time by one punch. Tyson got beaten in his losses because this didnt happend, because it couldnt happen he had a better chin, look at the great fighters they all took beatings, Ali, Louis, Frazier, Liston. All great but still took beatings Lewis and Douglas even say Tyson took there best punches. Against holyfield tyson took the punches was knocked off balance once. As for you saying tyson didnt follow up he losses, the douglas one was impossible as he was a gonner by the time tyson would fight him next, there was never going to be a third holy fight and the other he was old. I think you should read my post in the Top 5 Heavyweights or top 10 its in one if them topics. Also watch the tyson interview i posted

[-CANE-]

Iron Man - First of all I did check out your Tyson interviews, check out my reply. I am not a Tyson hater, he's one of my favourite fighters. Secondly Lewis didn't take Tyson's best shots, but he took the best he had to offer on that night, and he got hit with a few good punches, and avoided the rest. Yes he improved with age, but only technically and that was all down to training for a period of time under the great manny steward. He was a lot bigger and slower than when he fought ruddock, so Lewis wasn't in his prime when he fought Tyson, despite a lot of people thinking that. Try reading a couple of posts up, my discussion with Bobby Pazuzu regarding a prime Lennox and a prime Tyson. They were both great fighters, and had they met when Tyson was in his prime, and everyone seen Lennox's prime because no-one ever did, if manny steward had trained him from the beginning a prime Lennox would have been when he fought Ruddock, when he weighed a lot less and was twice as fast as later in his career and could still take out most heavyweights with one shot and anyone with his combination punching over a period of time, but a lot better technically. You see Lennox as good as he was when he fought Ruddock was still like an amateur with his feet wide apart and not setting himself properly to get maximum leverage and power, and wasn't very good on the inside like he was later in his career, that Lennox the one we never saw would have IMO beaten Tyson in his prime. When he was fighting Ruddock as he was fast and amateurish, I say his speed gives Tyson some problems but he gets knocked out because he was off balance and still had a lot to learn technically. The late Lennox that we saw like when he fought Tyson, had Tyson been in his prime, its a pickem. Either Tyson ko's him by 6 or Lennox beats him on points or stops him late. I also agree with you in that Tyson had a better chin, much better, one of the best the heavyweight division has seen, I've never said anything other than that, but that fact alone doesn't make Tyson greater, just because Lewis got ko'd twice. It also doesn't mean for certain a prime Tyson would ko any version of Lewis. What I said was Lewis had a really good chin, but not comparable to Tyson,Ali or Holmes. Being a great isn't just on who had the best chin. Its also not bull**** or an excuse that he walked onto McCall's shot which doubled the power, any boxing fan knows if your coming onto a shot rather than moving a way from it, it severly increases the chances of knocking you out, and carries more power because you are coming onto it. He got up at 6, yes he was shaky and may well have been stopped had it gone on, but he was never given the chance to prove it, so no-one can say for sure. He might of hung on for dear life and made it to the end of the round and recovered, no-one knows. By the time he fought Rahman he had slowed down considerably, was over confident and lazy and never trained properly and never acclimatized himself to the conditions in S.A. An excuse no, that's he's fault he should have been better prepared and got knocked into oblivion, and this time was never getting up. But he picked himself up and trained properly for the rematch, took just as good as punches in the rematch and produced an ever better one in getting revenge and proving that the first fight was a fluke and that he was the better man. That is the mark of a true champion. Yes it was impossible for Tyson to rematch Douglas, he did rematch Holyfield even though way past his prime, and got beat again, even at that stage of his career I still say he had enough speed and power and boxing ability to beat Holyfield on both occasions, except for one thing his mental toughness. He never really truly dug deep in the fights he was losing to try and win, with possibly the exception of the douglas fight, but even then it was more a case of trying to take his head off with one shot, and coming in straight on or just standing there trying to slip punches, while trying to land a big one of his own. Where was the lateral movement and the combination punching and the true grit and determination when he really needed it, it was never there. No he never quit in the ring even when he was beaten mentally, he wanted to prove his manhood and take his beatings like a man, just like against Lewis, which he even says in his interview that you posted. He resigned himself to the fact that he wasn't gonna win, but he was gonna take as much punishment as possible and not quit. That's why comparing Mike Tyson even a prime one, against any of the other greats, yes he did have a good chance of beating them all, but had the other fighters stood up to him and lasted 6-7 rounds, the more likely outcome is he loses, because of his mental attitude and confidence, and the fact that even when winning fight's in his prime the tendency was after 6-7 rounds he slowed down considerably, not throwing combinations and looking for a single shot and neglected the lateral movement as well, and against great fighters not the likes of Tucker,Smith etc he is more likely to come unstuck. That is why I only have Tyson at no.10, and not as great as the likes of Holmes,Ali,Lewis and even Holyfield,Louis etc. I'm not saying its not possible for him to beat them because for 6 rounds he was one of the best, if not the best fighter of all-time, but fights are over 12 rounds, and you need to be able to adapt in fights, you need heart, you need to dig down as deep as possible and you need a mental confidence as well, something Tyson never really showed when the chips were down.

[The Iron Man]

Lewis improved with age as tyson declined in age, so i think thats its almost like comparing the Marciano-Louis fight or the Ali-Berbick fight, to me you cant judge a fighters rankings by there last fights. Its Usually for money, and with diminished Skills. Lewis was closer to his prime than tyson wen they fought each other. I believe being larger helped Lewis with his game, and with many fights with hard hitters e.g. Tua. I disagree with neve seeing lewis' prime, as you see every fighters prime, i belive u mean he didnt reach his full potential as with tyson. Prime isnt something that may come, prime is the time wen u are fighting at your best. Nothing to do with age or potential. So its no good saying the lennox we never saw would have beaten him, the tyson we never saw would have been the greatest ever but it didnt happen so we cant compare that. For A lewis-tyson prime fight, we would need to fighters from different eras, as a 86-90s tyson would KO the smaller Lewis within 6 rounds, But the 93-00 lewis would abbliterate the Diminished, head hunting tyson. The Reason you give for Lewis losing to Rahman is basically the same reason as to why Tyson Lost to Douglas, Holyfield and Lewis. He wasnt training as much he was too big headed, even though it dnt think he could of beaten lewis if he did train harder he didnt have the skills anymore. But still in these fights he fought like a warrior looking for a way to win, taking the punches the fact was he didnt prepare so losing was inevitable. As for Lewis he didnt prepare and got knocked out each time by one big shot, that shows the difference between their chins. As for Tyson not having Heart i dont agree with that as i have stated above he never gave in, lewis i dont think ever come back from the cavas to win, and there artn any occassions were he was geting beat like tyson and he came back

[-CANE-]

Iron - Yes Lewis did improve with age, but only technically, because he was older and heavier though he diminished in speed of hand and foot, and although bigger and planting his feet correctly to get more power, it wasn't any better than when he was younger, because speed can give you more power, if you can't see the punch coming you can't prepare for it, so I would say his power stayed about the same. No Leenox didn't reach his full potential. So what would happen if they met in their primes, you said prime Tyson ko's early Lewis in 6, and prime Lewis obliterates and old Tyson. So what do you think prime Tyson and prime Lewis would be? You said in the fights Tyson lost he fought like a warrior, looking for a way to win. For someone with such knowledge of the game he didn't look much did he, he kept trying the same thing over and over again, coming straight in and trying to take their heads off with one big punch. I do believe he still had the skills, but couldn't apply them when his back was against the wall. Look at the 1st couple of rounds against Lewis, he looked like the old Tyson, but Lewis stood up to him and fired back and put him off his game plan, neglecting everything he does so well and just going for the knockout shot. Why didn't he carry on fighting like that in the 3rd round onwards, it doesn't just disappear and it wasn't stamina, he was put off mentally. Lewis had got to him just as Douglas and Holyfield had previously. You say Tyson never had heart and never gave in, but watch the fights, he did give in mentally. He was gonna get beat in his own mind and while trying to still go for a ko win, hed been completely put off his own game plan. Holyifeld looked to be getting beat on numerous occasions and was in all sorts of trouble, what does he do. He takes all and sucks it up and gathers himself, and throws back as many punches as he can, not single shots that my friend is the true heart of a warrior. You keeps going on about Lewis getting kod with single punches, and that wouldn't happen to Tyson, and that shows the difference in their chins. How many times do I have to say I agree, I've never said Lewis's chin was anywhere near Tyson's, but it was good. That does not make Tyson a better fighter. You also say you don't think Lewis ever came back from being dropped to win a fight, neither did Tyson. And you also say there aren't any occasions where he was getting beat like Tyson was and came back to win, well again I disagree. Lewis was getting beaten by Bruno and was hurt on a view occasions, he took them and came back with a cracking left hook followed by a barrage of punches. Lewis had a great fight with Mercer and Mercer threw plenty of shots, Lewis ****** them up and hit him back with just as many, giving it his all and not just looking for a single shot. Shannon Briggs hurt Lewis a few times and hit him with several combinations, Lewis just stands there and waits for him to stop punching then unleashes a barrage of punches himself, again against Klitscko he seems to be taking a beating but comes back into the fight and refuses to be beat, gives it everything. No these fights I mentioned weren't beatings in the sense that Tyson took, but that's because Lennox had true heart and wouldn't let them become beatings, he would have gone down fighting his heart out, not just looking for a single shot, like Tyson. Tyson in his defeats could have given so much more and if that wouldn't have been enough, then he would have gone out like a true warrior that would have been real heart. I ask myself as a Tyson fan where you watching them fights Tyson was losing and thinking COME ON Mike what are you doing, throw some combos, get stuck in or where you just saying keep doing what you are doing eventually you'll land one.

[The Iron Man]

Yeh True, Tyson would look for one good shot wen he was losing, and it wasnt the best tactic but he was trying still andi believe if he had better corner men in those fights he would of been better tactically, ive seen a interview with Kevin Ronney and what he would of told mike in the Doulgas and Holyfield fight. This could of helped tyson, you must remember his corner men were inexperienced and basically **** if they tell mike he can only win by KO thats what he will look for. Lewis had heart yes im not denying that, but as for the knocked downs, how many times did he beat the count and carry on to fight in his carrer? Lewis Tyson in both their primes would be a great fight, soo close, but tyson would be faster than the lewis fought and would be able to evade punches much better, as lewis' chin isnt great i think tyson would win by KO probably around 6 again the same as a non prime lewis. When i said tyson never gave in i meant, gone down to take the 8 or got KOd by a one off punch, i know mentally he gave in but physically he didnt. As for lewis getting hurt and comming back, so did tyson he got hurt many times in his career but fought back, aslo against Bruno, Ruddock many times. Against Golota tyson was losing and found that big punch, which usually didnt work but thats how he would look for wins, as i said earlier his corner men could no advise anything better.As for the Klitscko fight i was very dissapointed that lewis didnt go for a re-match it was alot like tyson Going back to prove he was a better fighter than Rudock but Lewis instead retired.And wen watching the tyson fights i think exactly the same man, exactly the same. I believe if he had Rooney and cus then he would have done that

[-CANE-]

Iron - Fair enough, regarding the prime Tyson prime Lewis fight you said Tyson by ko6 again, do you think if had gone on into the latter rounds Lewis is the more likely winner. What you said about Tyson having a better corner, his tactics would have been better, that's basically what I said with Lewis had he been trained by Steward from the beginning, he didn't he had who he had, he also has more knowledge of boxing than any other fighter, and shouldn't have needed a corner to tell him what to do, he should have realised himself. Lewis was floored twice in his career and he beat the count once up at 6, but wasn't given the chance to continue, whether he would have gone on to win or not no one will ever know. But he should have been given the chance in a fight that big. Tyson never got off the floor to win either, can't remember or not whether he actually beat a count or not. I too was disappointed Lewis never had the rematch with Klitchko as I think he would have stopped him in emphatic fashion around the 8 round, but he was very clever and knew he was at the very end of his career and possibly ready for the taking. It wasn't the greatest way to go out, but I think he was well on top of Klitchko by the time of the stoppage and even without the cuts, would have finished it. Klitchko had appeared to run out of steam, and was taking some thunderous punches. Some of them uppercuts he took would have taken out almost anyone, Lewis was landing more frequently and Klitchko wouldn't have taken them all night. But at the end of the day he retired as champion, which not many do and he beat everyone he ever faced, he unified the belts and was 3 time champ. He beat everyone there was to beat, including 2 other greats in Holyfield and Tyson. There was only 2 other fighters he never fought, and that was Bowe who ducked Lewis and would have lost anyway, and Moorer who IMO wouldn't have lasted 4 rounds with Lennox. He also had more title fights than anyone else in history with the exception of Ali,Holmes and Holyfield. And he boxed in the strongest the heavyweight division had ever been, with the possible exception of the 70's than in any other era. That is why despite those 2 ko losses, which he avenged. In my mind on achievment,quality of opposition,length of reign,fighters beat,overall record,number of title fights,titles won and boxing ability he comes out in the top 3 all time greats and Tyson at no10. On all of these Lennox Lewis was greater than Mike Tyson. Could Tyson have beat Lewis both in their primes YES, could Lewis have beat Tyson in their primes the answer is YES. Could Mike Tyson have been the greatest ever YES (Had he been taught discipline at a young age, and had the mental tougness and confidence of a Holyfield) Could Lennox Lewis have been the greatest ever YES (Had steward trained him from the start) But things were as they were so who was the greatest using all the criteria:- Lennox Lewis