Why would Mannie agree when he is clean? It's obvious to the eye he is clean. No cranial bone mass increase, no new striation, no insta veins. These are all visible items of evidence on JMM. All you can say is Manny moved up in weight and still won. Whoo! Guess you can convict Mayweather then. The fact is that Pac and Floyd did that because of talent and talent alone. Although in Floyd's case, a program of cherry picking and dodging was employed. Get a life, dude! All you and your ilk is doing is promoting doping.
LOL
DOUBLE STANDARD: a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people or circumstances than to another
larry, you and the rest of the floyd brigade are the ones that kept on harping about pacquiao and Ped's despite him passing these tests, that are apparently now sufficient for new marquez
and also why do you lot till this day act like pacquiao hasn't agreed to extra testing, when has has? plz floyd, just fight him.
marquez is just incredibly suspicious, although i agree that some pacfans are going overboard(wileyhyena) with the spam threads and non-stop accusations like there's proof
When has Pacquiao agreed to FULL random testing without a cutoff in ACTUAL ROUNDS OF NEGOTIATION to make the fight?? Please don't count these statements of posturing that he has made outside of formal negotiations. To add, please don't mistake me for a *****. Floyd has blame as well for not making this fight happen...
I see that you tippy-toed your way through that one Larry.
Initially, Manny was OK with testing but not exactly the way Floyd wanted it. That is, they disagreed on cutoff dates.Later Manny agreed EXACTLY to Floyd's terms.
Similarly, many Manny fans were OK with the testing BUT just thought it was an excuse by Floyd to not take the risk. Manny agreed to testing and sure enough, Floyd came back with another roadblock.
This is what was meant by Floyd ducking so don't twist it.
You have your history misconstrued as well. Manny has never agreed to FULL, RANDOM TESTING in ANY FORMAL round of negotiations. Please take with a grain of salt all these supposed statements of agreement that he has made in the media AFTER FORMAL NEGOTIATIONS CEASED...
What happened to you Floyd fans saying that we need better testing? What happened to all that? It appears that now, it just doesn't matter but it mattered a lot when your hero said it mattered.
By the way, it was never about testing or not testing. Manny said OK even during the first negotiations. They just didn't agree on the cutoff dates. So please, don't come back with a simple line from Roach when his team agreed to what Floyd wanted.
Manny said in many videos that he was willing to do whatever Floyd wanted on the PEDs testing roadblock but Floyd then moved on to some other roadblock.
Finally, there was a poll almost 3 years ago where most of Manny and Floyd fans were OK with 14 days cutoff just to get that fight on.
Again, many Manny fans were OK with testing BUT thought that Floyd was just using that as an excuse and we were right since we saw him come up with new roadblocks once Manny agreed!
I'm sorry. You have your history misconstrued. Manny and his team NEVER agreed to FULL, RANDOM TESTING in ANY round of FORMAL negotiations with Floyd and his team.
Manny says plenty of things. Most importantly, Pac has never said that he would agree to extra testing during any of the FORMAL rounds of negotiation. All these subsequent statements you're referring to were simply statements indicative of posturing AFTER formal negotiations ceased...
By the way, WHO THE HELL OFFERED THE 14 DAY CUTOFF IN THE FIRST PLACE??!! LOL, it was Floyd. Guess what? Pac failed to agree with it when it was actually time to FORMALLY negotiate..
Nobody wants to talk about the scourge of PEDs on the athlete because of the big money. Why wait until Juan Manuel Marquez dies of heart failure before this issue is finally confronted? Now is the time.
It's been proven that PEDs cause the balls to shrink to the size of BBs. When this happens, the male organ refuses to acknowledge the presence of choice T & A.
It's been proven that PEDs cause severe heart damage over time.
It's been proven that PEDs cause baldness.
It's been proven that PEDs cause other coronary and neurological problems.
It's been proven that PEDs cause zits to 40 year old people.
_________
Is the big money worth it? Is the gravy train to all the promoters and marketeers worth it? When JMM is dead at 50, his sponsors will still be taking sumptuous summer vacations on island retreats and driving mercedes benz around town on the money they took from JMM's sacrifice.
C'mon people its time to talk about this.
The fact that Pacman was beaten by the Juice is a minor point in this important conversation.
LOL,
DOUBLE STANDARD: a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people or circumstances than to another
I believe that it is you that is playing this game of semantics.
Again, the discussions were that Manny was willing to go that extra step beyond what the commissions had in place. Larry gave the impression that that was not the case.
Manny then went out to the public and told everyone that he was willing to do EXACTLY what Floyd wanted concerning testing. Finally, Floyd's team agreed at one point that "drug testing is no longer an issue".
I'm sorry, but you are doing nothing but bringing up revisionist history. Manny never agreed to FULL, RANDOM testing, which was the final offer in the last round of FORMAL negotiations with Floyd and his team. Again, the most conciliatory offer for Manny was put on the table by Floyd FIRST. This offer consisted of a 50-50 split along with a 2 week cutoff. Manny failed to agree to these stipulations. In FORMAL business dealings, once an offer has been denied, it is AUTOMATICALLY VOIDED. The person who initially put out the offer is NOT BINDED to that offer in the future...
Pac NEVER, EVER agreed to full, random testing FORMALLY. Never mind these statements of posturing he has made in the media...
Well technically Floyd has never done FULL RANDOM OLYMPIC STYLE TESTING. Floyd just did his version and you bought it like as if it was the gold standard.
Larry brought up "let the commissions do their job". My point was that Manny was willing to go further than the commission rules to get the fight on. You can't deny he did that.
The roadblock was on cutoff dates not about not wanting to take the test prior to the fight.
Please do not play a game of semantics with me. The USADA testing that has been conducted in Floyd's recent fights may not be the best of all possible supplemental tests, but it's certainly better than what the commissions have now.
Again, Manny has never agreed to actual random testing even with Floyd's parameters in ANY FORMAL ROUND OF NEGOTIATIONS.
how could floyd have any blame for the fight not happening if in your mind you think pacquiao is bullshting about agreeing to the tests?
Well, if you look at the history of the actual FORMAL rounds of negotiation, aside from the primary issue of testing, purse split was another point of contention. Aside from the offer of 50-50 plus a 2 week cutoff for the testing, Floyd has been stubbornly steadfast on getting the lion's share of the purse. To add, Floyd has to be called out on the fact that he should have been more concerned with extra testing BEFORE the hype with Pacquiao began...
Perhaps there is confusion here. You are discussing negotiations #1. I'm discussing all negotiations that they had. About a year ago Floyd's team agreed that drugs are no longer an issue ... but we found out that the new issue was money.
Still, Larry didn't bring up all that. So not sure why you are even bringing it up. ........ in ALL negotiations, Manny was willing to go beyond what was required by the commissions. So for this discussion, it doesn't matter what the particulars were just that Manny was OK with going beyond what the current rules stated.
You are sorely mistaken. I'm talking about the negotiations in TOTALITY. AGAIN, the MOST conciliatory offer put forth by Floyd was a 50-50 split along with a 2 week cutoff for the testing. MANNY DID NOT AGREE WITH THIS OFFER. TO REPEAT, MANNY DIDN'T AGREE WITH THIS OFFER!
Yes, Floyd has been stubbornly steadfast on the issue of purse split, but again he was willing to compromise on that as well with that offer I described above. AGAIN, MANNY DIDN'T TAKE IT!
The devil is in the details. Conte has gone on record stating that substances such as EPO cycle out of the body within a MERE 3 DAYS! FULL, RANDOM testing has a better chance of preventing usage of such substances than commission testing or testing WITH CUTOFF DATES.
No. He does not need to respond to the demands of noncommissioned agents of jealous boxers. He is the king. He only has to respond to demands of "the commission" (lol).
Manny shows no visible signs of doping. The fact that he came up in weight and won is evidence of nothing more than talent. Ask Floyd.
LOL
Double Standard: a set of principles that applies differently and usually more rigorously to one group of people or circumstances than to another
manny accepted everything but the cut off fool ..then when he accepted it , floyd changed it again ..then he wanted 100% of the pie ..
Quit with the revisionist history. You're looking like an ignoramus by doing so. Pac never agreed to full, random testing in actual FORMAL rounds of negotiation. Floyd's best compromise on the testing as well as the purse came in the form of a 50-50 split and a two week cutoff for the testing. Pac failed to take it while it was on the table. The person making an offer is NOT LEGALLY bound to it if it has been rejected. Floyd and his team were WELL WITHIN THEIR LEGAL RIGHTS to change the necessary conditions for the fight. Pac and his team had the offer in their hands and didn't take advantage of it. Later down the road, they started crying about not being offered the same conciliatory conditions that Floyd put forth. With all the posturing that Pac and his team were doing, Floyd was justified in not budging on his stricter stipulations...
oh GOD.. nonito's resume >>>wards
Lol, you really are poor at properly engaging in conversational debates. It was already apparent in the other thread we were posting in. Nonito's resume is COMPLETELY irrelevant to the premise that the thread starter laid down.
yes i am , esp when the topic is retarded and shouldn't even be debated..i feel it's a waste of time.
OK. I really don't understand why you decided to post in the thread then...lol
like what demand ost that allows him to cheat ?
changing his demand from 14 day cut off to no cutt off?
accepting 50/50 ppv to wanting 100%of it?
yeah sure
Lol, Manny was the one who failed to accept the conciliatory offer of a 50-50 purse split and a 2 week cutoff for the testing. In FORMAL business dealings, once an offer has been denied, it is AUTOMATICALLY VOID. The offer is no longer binding in the future. Pac should have taken the offer when it was on the table INITIALLY...
im not revisioning anything ...fighters , writers , fans, even floyd bestfriened think floyd was running from pacman.. check my sig , 2 atg fighters think floyd was scared , theres a lot more people that think that..
Lol, I just deconstructed your fallacious argument using basic Business Law and the strongest rebuttal you have is saying that you're not guilty of my accusation. Lol, you remind me of a child.
Now you're resorting to an ad populum fallacy. Just because a certain amount of people believe something to be true, doesn't make it NECESSARILY so. Let me guess, you base the validity of ALL things in your life on what these very same people think?! Boy, you're dense...
all i said is the truth ..im actually tired talking about who's at fault and all that bs so i just tell the obvious ..bob and floyd never wanted this fight ..im just not blaming floyd here , bob too...and thats exactly who are responsible why this fight was not made
Lol, you would have made more logical sense starting off your tirade with this exact post. However, to say that your tirade was ALL TRUTH reeks of bias and intellectual dishonesty.
Sure, Floyd has blame. Sure, Arum has blame. Why is it right to blame these two and NOT PAC HIMSELF? Can you not see that you're just being biased? Pac is a damn Congressman in the Philippines and you're telling me that he can't make FORMAL business decisions on his own or, at the very least, influence them in his favor??? Please. ENOUGH WITH THE ******* FANATICISM...
People that blame both sides for the fight not happening need to grow up. If you gave a 12 year old a history starting from when Mayweather came out of retirement, I would bet 9/10 would clearly state Arum never wanted the fight.
Why didn't Bob Arum make the fight during the first negotiations? 50/50 purse and 14 day cut-off window for MP. With a offer like that, Floyd is the problem? Floyd is so much of a problem that you cut off negotiations and fight J. Clottey. Again, that is Floyd's fault? Sorry, I do have a extended education, but this is elementary. The history promotes that Bob Arum and Freddie Roach know the type of fighter FMJ is, and believe that Manny could not beat FMJ. How can anyone see this any other way? Multiple quotes from Freddie Roach stating FMJ would be their toughest fight and how Manny needed to correct things in his game before fighting Floyd. Freddie Roach admitted to Chuck and Reggie on the TNT special that Manny had made the same mistakes against JMM in every fight. Same mistakes! Let's now add the 4th fight to that list.
Seriously, it is illogical to believe that Arum or Roach would put Manny in the ring with Floyd, considering the struggles MP has had with JMM.
Look, people like myself are perfectly rational when they extend blame to ALL parties involved in the Pac-Mayweather negotiations.
I'll level with you on this however. I firmly believe that Arum and Pacquiao have the lion's share of the blame. Your description of the conciliatory offer composed of a 50-50 split and a two week cutoff for testing put forth by Floyd is accurate.
Probably when boxers startd getting lazy and refusing to do roadwork. Also, probably because many of the new trainers may not know how to get a boxer physically ready for a fight like the old vets who've passed away. So they easily bought into all the strength and conditioning mess.
I'm not sold on them myself. I've seen fighters end up MORE winded in the later rounds because of these so called experts. Donaire gets hooked up to breathing machines like a lab rat and still is winded at the end of his fights. I beieve they're just taking advantage of boxers making them believe they need something they really don't. Placebo effect.
The old ways worked and they shouldn't cast them aside due to "modern science". If it ain't broke don't fix it.
Long-distance running/Cross Country or what you refer to as "roadwork" is archaic in the modern world of sports science. Boxing is a sport composed of multiple short bursts that require anareobic capacity NOT aerobic capacity. SLOW long-distance running doesn't mimic the physical requirements in a fight. It's also worth mentioning that it's highly catabolic...
No offense but don't act like your slow.....
1. Trout missed a lot
2. When he did land they were jabs and pitty pat shots.
You act like I said Trout missed ever time he threw. That's not even close to saying he missed a lot, which after making it home and watching the replay....compubox/punch stat confirmed what I saw live and in person.
BTW....the fvck can I be biased when I was rocking a Trout shirt during the fight. I'll post a pic just to shut you up if you like.
Damn man, if you are a true Trout fan, it's simply amazing how you are taking this in stride. Maybe the Canelo-leaning crowd affected your final opinion? Just throwing that out there...
Based on your argument predicated upon Compubox stats, Trout landed more statistically and was statistically busier. Given these statistics, how can you agree with those official scores??? Doesn't this scream robbery?
Says the man with the Andre Ward avatar. A master of illegal clinching. WILL THE AMERICANS and/or fans of "SLICK" fighters STAND UP FOR BOXING JUSTICE?
I'm sick to death of these illegal clinchers.
Andre Ward has won all of his fights with little to no controversy. To add, Ward is completely IRRELEVANT to the topic at hand.
Look at those scores I posted. According to these scores, it was as if Canelo was fighting a dead man.
I assume that you love Boxing. Be about Boxing and not about BLIND nationalism and/or fanaticism. Right is RIGHT. Wrong is WRONG.
I would be saying the same thing if Canelo was American. I don't let BLIND nationalism and/or fanaticism get the best of me...
Isn't this about standing up for Justice!? CLEANING UP THE SPORT OF BOXING!?
So we should only stand up for justice because it's relevant to you? It's a conspiracy
Again, you're bringing up a red herring to the topic at hand. We're talking about Boxing Justice in the context of the Canelo-Trout fight...
Again, how do you explain the scores of 118-109 & 116-111? The 115-112 score is even OUT THERE!
Every punch worth a damn that was landed in this fight was landed by Canelo. In nearly every round, I would rather have been Canelo.
Again, this response doesn't explain the official scores. It seems that you've seceded to the argument that Trout landed more and was busier. However, you try to justify this by saying that Canelo landed the harder punches.
This justification still doesn't explain the robbery. Even though Canelo landed less, the shots he does land are going to be harder because he is the more powerful puncher. Everyone knew that going into this bout.
No robbery happened at all tonight. Trout was outclassed and didn't even belong in the same ring as Canelo. Reported for race baiting too.
Trout landed more and threw more.
You're insinuating that I'm racist. In what way, shape, or form was I being racist in this thread?
Stop with the ad hominem attacks...
I had Trout winning this fight by a point. He controled most of the rounds and landed more punches. Canelo was taken breaks through most of the rounds while Trout kept busy.. Are we supposed to give canelo the round just because he landed 2 or 3 solid shots while Trout controled the entire round?
Thank you for bringing this point up!
I'll put it like this, for the third time. Don't ever mention Hopkins name, or anything Hopkins does in the ring in a post in defense of Trout.
Especially not some crap like this:
I'm not sure what you are "mysteriously" insinuating with this post when you mention Hopkins. Like "Man, Hopkins exhibit's ring generalship all the time and you can not see Trout doing it tooooo?".
Is it that?
If it is, refer to my previous replies to you.
My goodness, your dedication to straw man arguments is very admirable.
I never stated that Trout had the same virtuosity and skills as B-Hop. No one in this thread has said that. Stop with the straw man arguments.
Ring Generalship is multi-faceted and I brought up points in this thread in regards to it that you and others have conveniently ignored...
how can you call this robbery when compubox show canelo landed more power shot hurt trout and trout even himselkf admitted defeat . how blind can you be??
Like I told another poster in this thread, Trout's reaction is probably indicative of his Christian faith, which seemed obvious due to the crucifixes he had on his trunks and fight robe. He simply turned the other cheek in this situation...
I usually don't like to refer to Compubox to reinforce any of my arguments for the main fact that they can easily be manipulated as well because, contrary to the name, a computer isn't the one determining what punches land or don't land. A human who can be open to manipulation or error can skew the results. In addition, Compubox doesn't fully encompass the subtle nuances in a fight.
But if I am going to entertain your argument based on Compubox alone, Trout should be the winner according to your logic because he landed more in totality.
Again, given your logic based on Compubox stats, how do you explain/justify those official scores given?
We don't disagree fights should be scored fairly. I scored it 7-5 (10-8 on kd), so I had a close decision for Canelo. Point is, I thought Canelo won. No lie, Trout is a truly talented fighter and remarkable sportsman, but I though he got outplayed at his own game by a conventional fighter not daunted by a southwpaw. Going forward, would love to see Trout take anyone else at 154 on the school bus, but Canelo proved he's not that kid, guys for real.
Thank you for agreeing. But based on this agreement, how can you sensibly agree to the scorecards put out there?? Wrong is WRONG. The judges were looking to commit a robbery.
If anything, it was Trout outplaying Canelo at his own game. After the first public announcement of the scores, Trout changed his gameplan and became more aggressive and busier. Canelo, surprisingly, wasn't the better aggressor for a majority of the fight...
How exactly did Trout control the pace and style of the fight? By throwing worthless jabs? You got cats in here saying Canelo took time off and only fought 30 seconds of each round. That right there is saying Canelo controlled the pace and style of fight seeing as how when Canelo wanted to, he upped the action of the fight and landed the more meaningful blows.
After the first 1/3rd of the fight, which was then followed by the first public announcement of the official scores, Trout, knowing that a robbery was going to happen, began applying more pressure and turning up the work rate. This put Canelo in positions that he didn't initiate. Before this change in Trout's gameplan, he was successfully turning Canelo and making him miss, while, at the same time, throwing more and landing more.
It seems that the general argument that the supporters of this robbery are making is that Canelo landed the harder blows. Well, this shouldn't be a surprise becase we all KNEW that Canelo was the harder puncher. Even if he landed less, the punches he did land were more powerful because that's indicative of his style...