Yeah but your forgetting that back then that Tyson was the baddest man on the planet . Everyone feared him including the gorilla . When Tyson would be stalking the gorilla bobbing and weaving behind his jab. The gorilla would be terrified of Tyson . and when Tyson would hit him he would of never felt anything like his power. One of Tyson's right hands to the gorillas temple and the gorilla would be out cold. He wouldn't be able to get up for a week.
So you're saying that he wasn't just the baddest man on the planet but also the baddest mammal on the planet?
However, the idea that the athletic performances of athletes / boxers during the 60's / 70's is the limit and no further enhancement has been made is totally false. I classify the 90's until today the modern era / generation.
Me too. Obviously the old boxers were legends and there's a lot that can be learned from them, but the sport moved on.
I think this nostalgia in boxing community really hurts the sport as it prevents people from appreciating what we have right now.
I also think that part of the reason for this romanticism of the past champions is because internet didn't exist back then and those old greats didn't have that many haters and detractors posting negative opinions about them everyday. These days pretty much any elite boxer gets underrated by the legion of online haters, people on the internet are generally very negative and rarely give any credit to anyone. Any ATG from the 90s until today has a ton of haters who constantly post negative things... Floyd, Klitschko's, RJJ, Pacquiao, Marquez, Ward, Hopkins... You name them. They all have much more haters in the so-called hardcore boxing community than the guys from the 60s and 70s.
To me, it's ridiculous to claim that modern athletes are going to be inferior to athletes of past eras. World records are being broken by athletes in nearly every athletic sport in the modern era. So to me, it's not too far fetched to believe that boxers today are also faster, more powerful, more agile, more responsive and simply superior athletes overall than boxers of past era, assuming the comparison is between athletes of similar size.
For example, a 6 foot 5, 240+ man during the 70's or 60's were usually sick, uncoordinated, unathletic, slow and etc. None of them were anywhere near as athletic as the Klitshcko brothers. It's only today we have athletes that big who are also extremely athletic.
Modern cruiserweights to me appear as superior athletes compared to the heavyweights of the 60's and 70's. They also appear to have better technique as well.
Take Oleksandr Usyk, he can do everything Muhammad was able to do, plus more. His technique is far superior. His footwork variation is also superior. This is just an example of the best cruiserweight today being superior to the best heavyweight of the 60's / 70's.
You're right. Boxing is one of the rare sports where romanticism clouds people's judgement. In most other sports, people just accept the fact that modern athletes are better but in boxing you have people who legitimately think Jack Johnson would be competitive today even though he comes from a time when men's 100m sprint world record was like 10.6 seconds.
Even if for the sake of the argument we assume that modern boxers aren't as skilled as the boxers of previous eras (which is highly debatable), modern boxers would have a big edge when it comes to athleticism and could overwhelm a lot of more skilled boxers of the past with it if you'd put them against each other head to head.
Of course, that doesn't mean that modern boxers are necessarily better legacy wise, the old boxers deserve their credit. People just need to accept that things are very different today and a lot of things evolved in sports.
Especially when you look at the HW division these modern super-HWs are hard to compare to anyone in the past because we never had this type of boxers before. You never had anyone of Klitschko's size who was as athletic and agile as him in the previous eras. Smaller people do things a bit differently technique-wise, that's why guys like Loma often appear more technical and skilled than the bigger guys. It's hard to do certain things when you're as big as Klitschko.
If anything, the past eras before Mike Tyson's era were all significantly weaker as far as I'm concerned.
If we judge by the Olympic records human athleticism was evolving fast until the 80s, then the development was slowed down a bit and the improvements from the 80s until now have been marginal.
The jab isn't the be all end all. Like I said before, Soviet bloc fighters tend to have a pretty solid 1-2, but they lack in other "skill" departments like inside fighting, body work, and counterpunching. IMO, the most important skill in any sport is making adjustments and changing your look, which I haven't seen GGG, Kovalev, or Usyk do at all in their fights. Hence, why they are described as "robotic" in their approach.
I'm from Eastern Europe and tend to support the fighters from this region but I agree with you. I think that Eastern European boxing has to catch up when it comes to pro style and Eastern European school of boxing needs to teach more variety.
I think Eastern Europe (if you include all the ex-Soviet areas) has the best talent pool in boxing right now. That's a huge population of people with proven great athleticism in all kinds of sports and at the same time there's a lot of poverty and unemployment which makes people want to consider a career in pro boxing.
The talent is definitely there but the thing that Eastern Europe is lacking is a tradition of pro boxing and there just aren't that many good trainers for pro style. Their principles are basically always the same, they push orthodoxy over creativity.
That's why most top boxers from Eastern Europe have great power or great chins (or both) because if you learn all the fighters the same orthodox "1-2" style then the fighters with the best power and the best chin are going to come on top in the local amateur and pro ranks while some otherwise talented boxers might struggle because they don't have the tools to deal with monster punchers like Kovalev or Beterbiev.
The thing is, pro boxing only exists in Eastern Europe for less than 30 years, so it's only natural that the optimal level of knowledge and experience isn't there yet.
Lomachenko is a great exception and I think in the future we will see more creative fighters like that coming from Eastern Europe.
A lot of fighters complain about Promoters robbing them, but in most cases, these guys squandered their money away. Sinking their money into depreciating assets like luxury cars, planes, bling, strippers/women, designer/custom clothes, mansions, divorces etc. Then there's the lawyer fees for when they inevitably get into trouble with the law or shady women--that can run into the millions. Accountants aren't cheap either.
Tyson earned $300M during his career from boxing and endorsements. While I don't doubt Don King swindled him out of some millions, a majority of it was life-style choices and poor decision making. Look at both Floyd and Manny. They earned hundreds of millions at each ran into IRS troubles despite their fortunes.
Yeah, even if Don King was "robbing" them they still had tons of money to buy all that expensive trash.
Sure Don King is a shady man but if he was robbing them so hard they wouldn't have money to buy those things in the first place.
Many athletes go broke because they spend money on stupid things like there's no tomorrow and attract all the leeches and wrong women. These boxers just had a handy excuse because they were involved with a crook who took some of that money away too and it's easy to point a finger at him. With their spending habits, they would be broke even without Don King.
It would be really interesting to trace where the money of all these broke athletes out there really went. Does the community benefit from some of it eventually through taxes?
Loma and Rigo are basically the same size, it's ridiculous how people are obsessing about few pounds at these lower weight classes. Heavyweights fight with a 20+ pounds disadvantage regularly and nobody gives a damn but these divas from the lower weights won't fight each other because someone is 5 pounds heavier. It's hilarious.
There are way too many weight classes in the lower divisions anyway. I'd just keep the original weight classes 118, 126 and 135 and that's it.
So says a guy who would get his arm snapped off in a sec by any journeyman judoka or bjj practitioner.
How the hell would you know that? Do you have telepatic abilities? How is that relevant to what I said anyway? It doesn't change the fact that they have weak glass chins and can't throw a punch to save their lives.
Also those UFC bums would get beaten easily by elite wrestlers or elite judokas so it's a retarded point. Their wrestling sucks, their jiu jitsu sucks, their judo sucks. They don't have any elite skills anywhere, it's just a bunch of former high school wrestlers with club fighter level boxing swinging at each other until they land on those pathetic fragile mandibles.
It's a pseudo-sport and trash entertainment. They fight in a cage FFS, let that sink in. A ****ing cage. It's against basic human dignity and self-respect to be willingly put in a cage.
Insane night UFC217.
Bunch of chinny fighters getting their glass shattered. You'll never see such "excitement" in boxing because there aren't many chinny fighters at the top level. UFC is basically like if every boxer had Amir Khan's chin and Margarito's defense. Of course there's going to be "exciting" KOs and finished but there is little skill involved.
Floyd will never get the same credit as the old legends simply because he fought in the age of internet where every fighter has a ton of haters who spit on him which then changes the perception of this fighter.
Every single elite fighter has more haters than fans these days. Fanboys usually like 3 or 4 fighters and **** on dozens of other fighters. So it's inevitable that all the negative attention is going to tarnish the reputation of fighters to at least some extent.
It's not just Floyd, ask about any elite fighter of this era and these are the majority of the responses you're going to get online...
"Klitschko? Weak era, weak chin, got exposed by Fury..."
"Pacquiao? Lost many times, catchweights, KO6, PEDs..."
"Golovkin? Fought bums, lost to Jacobs/Canelo, no defense, stiff..."
"Ward? Cheat, headbutts..."
Ali was lucky that there was no internet back then. We live in a negative and pessimistic era where people just don't want to give credit to anybody.
Haye's only goal is to get that final payday against Joshua.
Prime Haye was a beast though. People underrate him because of that clinic Klitschko put on him but that was pretty much the best version of Wlad.
Dana doesnt need stars he will create them, that guy is the best hype man, look how he did for ronda rousey.
He didn't do anything for Ronda Rousey. Dana White didn't even want women fighting in the UFC. He only picked Ronda when she already had a lot of hype behind her in Strikeforce. They didn't really do anything special to promote her, they just gave her a platform and all the American soccer moms and feminists followed her. Ronda was more of a creation of American media than the UFC.
Conor McGregor pretty much created himself too.
Before Conor and Ronda the UFC had zero stars in 2014. Just like they don't have any new stars right now.
The reason why UFC is popular is because they sold the fans the notion that those are the best fighters in the world fighting each other. He wouldn't be able to sell that in boxing if he staged some in-house PBC tournaments with fake belts when you would have Joshua, Canelo, Loma etc. fighting elsewhere.
Wlad lost to nobodies too. He lost to Purrity, Sanders and Brewster.
Fury showed just how limited Wlad really is.
Wlad went on to dominate the HW division for 11 years in the greatest run ever during which he established himself as the HW GOAT and barely lost a round during that time.
If Wlad was "limited" then how come nobody was able to do ANYTHING against him for 11 years? You don't dominate a sport for 11 years by being limited.
Lewis' greatest run between the embarrassing losses lasted for 6 years during which he had a draw against Holyfield, got a gift against Mercer and struggled against Mavrović.
Fury beat an old shot Wlad and he did it by barely landing anything but just by feinting and running against an old Wlad who had no legs under him.
The 39 year old shot Wlad that lost to Fury still beats any 39 year old boxer from whatever era. Show me a boxer of that age who could hang with Wlad of the same age in the ring.
Yea that's the truth, it's always emotion and no reason
It's just retarded trolling that somehow gets tolerated on every single boxing forum until it becomes part of internet culture for boxing fans.
Threats like this one and some other examples recently like "Tony Bellew has a better resume than Miguel Cotto" etc. People are just bored and are trying to get the most outrageous possible statement out there without being too obvious trolling.
Only in Klitschkoland is going out on a loss better than a win. :rofl:
Klitschko fought until he found a proper heir to his throne, a man who could beat him. He did what was the best thing for boxing rather than retiring with his titles. He faced dangerous contender Tyson Fury and another dangerous guy Joshua afterwards.
Lewis lost in the eyes of fans when he DUCKED Vitali.
I think Crawford seems pretty dedicated and Loma was a good one you named.You know just thinkin about it now Wilder and the Charlo bros never get much bad press outside of ring.Guys I don't think anybody would think of that way.
Wasn't Wilder choking some prostitutes in Las Vegas or something weird like this?
Crawford had his problems with the law, although that might not mean much since Floyd used to have them too. It's not a good sign though. Guys like Loma and Ward seem pretty professional in everything that they do and stay out of trouble.
How do you think Rigondeaux is like? He seems quite disciplined and hard working. Long career, Olympic athlete...
Before the Wlad's era the HW division was LIMITED and consisting of mostly overhyped local American boxers. It's only in the 00s that the HW division became really global. Wlad was the first real heavyweight champion of the WORLD and not just of the USA.
Your problem is you can't make those claims with Wlad's career, so you have to make up an alternate reality to delude yourself. He beat ZERO HOF calibre fighters. Hell at least Vitali competed with one, and showed he belonged at that level.
Povetkin, Pulev, Ibragimov, Haye etc. would all be in HOF if they were Americans and got that American hype behind them.
HOF is a joke, Americans and their sports are a joke.
I'd personally go
1. Ali 2. Louis 3. Johnson 4. Holmes 5. Foreman 6. Marciano 7. Holyfield 8. Frazier 9. Lewis 10. Dempsey 11. Liston 12. Walcott 13. Charles 14. Tyson 15. Wlad off the top of my head.
LOL!
Wlad has the best legacy out of all HWs. He dominated for 11 years in the best HW era so far when boxing became a global sport filled with international talent.
All of those hyped American guys made their names fighting other American guys when boxing was pretty much a local American sport. They didn't face the global talent that Wlad did. And they still couldn't display the longevity that Wlad did.
Take all the American hype away and they're not on the level of Wlad and his era.
"There is no boxer in history who wouldn't rack up at least 10 loses if he tried to go through Wlad's resume if he was forced to box that long"...............................
Seriously his opponents actually are horrible............
If you think he was a great fighter thats fine.....................
To me he gets destroyed against great boxers.
When he gets hurt he stays hurt!
Good luck with your worshiping.
Ray
The PRIME version of Wlad that beat Haye beats any boxer in history.
• Lewis beat Evander Holyfield and Mike Tyson, to definitively prove himself as the best of his era. Wladimir never got to prove that since he couldn't fight Vitali, but Lewis fought Vitali and stopped him.
Lewis never beat Riddick Bowe who arguably has a better resume than him and was the better boxer of their generation.
The Klitschko brothers beat EVERYBODY in their era. You can't expect brothers to fight each other.
David Haye.
These guys pretty much live like Olympic athletes, in boxing there is still a tendency for fighters to get badly out of shape between fights.
David Haye likes to party though, I'm not sure he's totally focused on boxing when he doesn't have a fight lined up. He did seem to take it more seriously after he lost to Bellew but now his body can't take it anymore.
Before the Bellew fight he was literally training on a yacht and partying.
It seems that he can have a great work ethic when he motivates himself though.
The Gypsy King and the Bronze Bomber are most definately still alive and kicking.
If they are then they should have no problems beating Bellew or Whyte.
Let's face it, Hearn does have a point here. A fight with either Bellew or Whyte would build up a fight with Joshua in the UK.
If Wilder is good enough to take on Joshua he should run through Whyte easily and if the Super-HW Fury can't beat Bellew he should retire in shame.
Whyte is a gatekeeper who can promote fights with trash talk. He should have been a good fight for any elite HW wanting Joshua. Easy money and more build up and money for the Joshua payday.
I don't think Hearn is trying too hard to protect Joshua at all. He did match him with Klitschko after only 19 fights. The fight with Martin was a relative risk too since many people thought it was too early for Joshua to become the champ and some people actually thought that Martin might be legit.
So at 28 and 8 years as a pro he wasnt prime??? come on man
Wlad had a 10 year long undefeated run which is, relative to his career, his prime.
The prime of someone's career is when he is at his ultimate best. For some fighters it comes later.
Wlad was good at 28 too but he wasn't at his best yet. If you're talking about the absolute prime Wlad, it has to be from 2006-2012. In those years he not only didn't lose but looked unbeatable.
Watching the fighters of the 90s and comparing them to todays it's clear as day who were the more talented. You can pull stats and numbers from anywhere you like, you are convincing nobody that sees it with their own two eyes.
Modern fighters are better. Boxing is a sport where bad fighters can make each other look good and good fighters can make each other look bad. I don't care how "good" they looked, it's entirely subjective.
Lennox never beat him in the pros and that's all that matters. He also lost to two low level fighters during his prime and also to Ray Mercer but got the gift from the judges.
Lewis is probably the most overrated HW boxer ever. He wouldn't even be elite in the current era. Joshua, Wilder and Fury all beat him. Probably Povetkin and Ortiz too.
I know Zinedine Zidane was a smoker and he's one of the greatest players of all time in his sport.
Football players have no discipline, aboslutely NONE. But it's easier for them because it's 11 vs 11 and they can hide behind the team if they're tired.