Lineal Heavyweight title is "bull****"?

[aboutfkntime]

I've offered no opinion on that and couldn't care less about middleweight ratings. You keep changing the subject to that because you now realize Kovalev blatantly ducked Stevenson.

fcuk you're an idiot...

FACT: Kovalev could have taken that fight

FACT: Stevenson showed no interest whatsoever on at least 2 prior occasions

I am not arguing with you about who ducked who... know why ?

if lineage is all about who ducked who... then you just proved my point PERFECTLY... lineage is shlt !!

it either happened in the ring... or it is not worth discussing

there are good knowledgeable guys here... you are not one of them


insists that this post is not relevant to lineage...

Canelo was ranked the #1 middleweight on the planet because of lineage... which is ABSOLUTELY ABSURD... because he had never faced a middleweight opponent, and he had never weighed more than 155

but insists that the lame Kovalev/Stevenson debate somehow is

[N/A]

wilder on the otherhand couldnt take the fair commentary from paulie malignagi so ran over to fox sports.

Yes yes, Wilder's PPVs aren't with Fox now so that millions of people see the shoulder programming on one of the largest free networks in the world. Wilder's PPV are with Fox because of Paulie Malignaggi. What a ****ing genius you are.

[N/A]

you're an idiot...

If I was an idiot, you'd be able to counter my argument that Kovalev blatantly ducked Stevenson. Since you can't counter my argument, you name call and change the subject to Canelo's catch weights, which have absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.

[aboutfkntime]

If I was an idiot, you'd be able to counter my argument that Kovalev blatantly ducked Stevenson. Since you can't counter my argument, you name call and change the subject to Canelo's catch weights, which have absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.

I don't give shlt about that, you crybaby fool

insists that this post is not relevant to lineage...

Canelo was ranked the #1 middleweight on the planet because of lineage...

1) despite the fact that he had never faced a middleweight opponent
2) despite the fact that he had never weighed more than 155
3) despite the fact that Golovkin was obviously the best middleweight on the planet

but insists that the lame Kovalev/Stevenson debate somehow is

[aboutfkntime]

If I was an idiot, you'd be able to counter my argument that Kovalev blatantly ducked Stevenson. Since you can't counter my argument, you name call and change the subject to Canelo's catch weights, which have absolutely nothing to do with what I was talking about.

you are an idiot... google-search, FIRST LINK...

Is Adonis Stevenson ducking Sergei Kovalev ?

This much we know: a deal was in place, even before the Stevenson-Kovalev double-header this past November, to see the two light-heavyweight power-punchers clash in the fall of this year on HBO. Terms had been agreed upon and all the major players were on board. Except Stevenson. When push came to shove, Adonis would not commit.

Even Yvon Michel, Stevenson’s promoter and effectively his manager until recently, was in favor of the HBO deal and recommended Adonis sign on. But “Superman” refused. Instead what he did sign in February was a managerial deal with Al Haymon, highlighting the fact that up to this point, Stevenson, legally, had no manager. As soon as that happened, everyone in the boxing business knew the Kovalev match was on life support. HBO no longer does business with Haymon, the man behind Mayweather; only Showtime does.

Sure enough, the Fonfara bout will be Stevenson’s first with Showtime. And there’s nothing HBO can do about it. It was HBO which put money into Stevenson’s and Yvon Michel’s pockets for the Chad Dawson, Tavoris Cloud and Tony Bellew matches, but Showtime outbid them for the Fonfara bout. Once Michel had the offer from Showtime in hand he contacted HBO and asked if they wanted to beat it. HBO declined.

Aside from all the boxing fans who had to wipe the drool from their chins every time they contemplated a showdown between two of the biggest punchers in the sport, the person evidently most disappointed by all this is Kathy Duva of Main Events Inc., Kovalev’s promotional firm. As far as she is concerned the deal for a Superman vs Krusher fight was as good as sealed and delivered, conditional only on the two boxers winning their upcoming matches.

“A deal is a deal and you don’t go back on it,” she told veteran boxing scribe Kevin Iole. According to her, she contacted Michel the second she heard about Adonis signing with Haymon to make sure everything remained in place. “I called Yvon and Yvon said, ‘Oh there is no problem. It’s fine. There is nothing wrong.’ ” She has since provided emails which appear to back up her version of events while Michel has since confirmed that the terms discussed were generous to Stevenson: 70 percent of the gate and 60 percent of the television revenue.

However, the fact remains no actual dotted lines carry any signatures. While a verbal agreement appears to have been in place between Duva, Michel and HBO, clearly Stevenson was not enthusiastic. The fact Michel could not deliver his fighter must be a source of some embarrassment for Quebec’s premier boxing impresario, but there were no signs of awkwardness or agitation at the Montreal Casino today. “It’s just business,” was the catch-phrase repeated over and over again by Michel and Stevenson, the word “business” a magical one, making all skepticism and difficult questions disappear.

Indeed, Stevenson will now pocket more money for the Fonfara match and, presumably, for future contests. And the contractual obstacles to a fight with Bernard Hopkins, something Stevenson clearly desires, are now out of the way. It doesn’t take a great deal of imagination to envision Stevenson looking at his options and deciding it makes more sense to collect paydays for matches of lesser risk before taking a chance with a legit 175 lb. knockout artist who is in his prime. If you could make big money fighting either a 50-year-old ex-middleweight who hasn’t won inside the distance in almost a decade, or a savage puncher who has knocked out almost 90 percent of his opponents and actually killed a man in the ring, which would you choose?
.........

So, is Adonis Stevenson ducking Sergey Kovalev? In a word, yes. But it makes good financial sense. And in these times of advanced capitalism, when cash trumps all and everything and everyone is for sale, who can fault him? You see, it’s about money, first and last. It’s business, nothing more. — Michael Carbert

https://www.thefightcity.com/is-superman-ducking-the-krusher/

I did not wish to discuss this ridiculous subject because it is totally irrelevant to the topic at hand

so I will not reply to the IRRELEVANT childish crybaby post that will obviously return from you... because it is IRRELEVANT to the current discussion regarding lineage

how ****** are you... ?

REALLY ******

if you wanted to discuss lineage, there are plenty of examples you could find using fights that actually did happen... but what do you choose to do, you decide to discuss a fight that did not happen LMAO

what a dropkick

[billeau2]

Well, for my part I never said Fury wasn't lineal nor did I ever say lineal means all that much.

Far as Joshua is concerned, I don't think it's the title there so much as the means of them. Joshua is holding Fury's belts. Fury earned those belts from the man, sanctioning bodies did their bull****, Fury lost his belts without losing in the ring. Lineal is nonsense, but being the man to dethrone Wlad and still being unbeaten, that makes you better than the johnny come lately who cleaned up your leftovers.


Joshua can't get a better win than Fury has. Best he can do is stack lesser wins until the Wlad win itself doesn't look so good. Fury fought Wilder, loads reckon he won, Josh fought Ruiz and definitely lost....it's not even a hard choice.

Its funny M: Even though we disagree about the lineal's importance, to me you are the authority on titles, and the history of how they have been sanctioned. I would, under the circumstances defer to your judgement, including about the lineal.

With that said here is my case for the lineal:

I believe that when fans are informed they see things like when a judges' decision is hogwash, or if there are extenuating circumstances to a victory, or loss. We need some governing bodies to oversee safety issues, but it should be obvious who the best fighters are, and what fights should determine the best fighter in the bunch.

Boxing is one of the few sports that allows for fighters to declare a title with no mechanism for having an agreed upon standing. We have so many titles running around. And these title organizations determine things that are not related to the best fighting the best at all times.

The lineal puts the power in the hands of the fans. It is flexible enough, deterministic enough, and has held sway long enough, that it becomes the only means of asserting the "King of the Hill" with no conditions.

[Boxing Goat]

DUVA ASKED for the Kovalev/Pascal winner be named mandatory. DUVA ASKED that the Kovalev/Pascal winner be given a 50/50 split.

The WBC granted the very unusual request and Stevenson embraced the order and was gung ho about doing the fight.

A purse bid was ordered. A mandatory fight. 50/50 split. With Stevenson saying HELL YES!

And then Kovalev ducked the fight and went and resigned with HBO and used it as an excuse to duck Stevenson.

So you know Stevenson now? GTFOH

if you really believe that Kovalev was somehow scared of Stevenson. He would have knocked him out silly and everyone with any boxing knowledge knows it

[N/A]

He would have knocked him out silly and everyone with any boxing knowledge knows it

Then why didn't he go through with the fight after being given everything he asked for?

[Marchegiano]

interesting, just like I expected your reply to be

and just like all your other posts

this is how I see it bro...

there are two different things, that are being horribly confused

1) genuine boxing lineage
2) the lineal " championship "

boxing lineage, is the very dictionary definition of the word... no confusion possible

We can all do that bud:

Semantics; the historical and psychological study and the classification of changes in the signification of words or forms viewed as factors in linguistic development.

I understand your point and don't mean to argue against you, I mean simply to say that's a never ending endeavour.

lineage, is the most important thing in boxing... and in truth, dates back even further than the great John L ... even further back than Figg (or Fig, however you prefer to spell it)... even further back than the Greeks...







Figg was a real character, I would love to hear your opinion on him... sword-master, spear-master, pugilist extraordinaire

digress

the other subject is... the lineal " championship ", or "sham-pionship" as I prefer to call it

no need to waste my time explaining the specifics of the lineal sham-pionship to a well-schooled guy you... but I pre-date that rubbish, put it that way

one, is everything... the other, is nothing

I would love to hear your thoughts about Figg

and also your thoughts about this post...




nobody gave Canelo a chance of beating Golovkin at that point

I remember one guy insisting that the fat red kid will lite that boy up like a christmas tree... but nobody else

I would challenge any lineage older than Greece.

Greek boxing is where our sport evolved from. Dambe is the present form of Ancient Nigerian fist fighting, not boxing.

There are connections to this day to Greece in boxing culture, there are none from african or middle eastern boxing.


The story in brief:

Sparta invents boxing as a military training exercise. Other forms of fist fighting, events, sports, etc, existed prior but our boxing comes from Sparta's war machine and nowhere else.

Sparta was no influenced by other cultures to create boxing, the advent of the military martial art came as a necessity for training the sword and shield style without killing one another. As an added bonus Sparta discovered their warrior's skulls had thickened and stopped issuing helmets. That's why when you see Spartans with a helmet on in art and such it's usually a Corinthian helmet.

Anyway, the Greeks recognized Sparta's war prowess and sought to limit in fighting amongst the city-states by taking their martial art and turning it into a sport.

There is no such thing as a Spartan champion because Spartans do no quit and the rest of Greece thought of that as unsportsmanlike so Sparta banned it's people from entering the Olympics for Pymachia is was called.

This is not the gladiators, nor would it become gladiators. Gladiators, like say Nubian fist fighting, might exist and fight with fists but their culture, training, theories, etc are totally separate.

This is Olympia. Boxing became the sport of Apollo and all those who box or watch boxing worship Apollo.

A few millenia pass, Rome takes over, renames the sport Pyx, allows more brutal gloves and changes the rules a bit.

Rome is Christianized and bans all pagan rituals. Remember, Apollo is the God of boxing? Yeah, boxing pagan and banned in Christandom

Except, Russia gives no ****s about any Pope do they? Yessir, our friends in Russia pick up the sport and make massive changes. Russians would key very much into alleviating tensions between territories by having representative fight rather than allowing wars to just break out. So the Russians turned the individual sport into a team sport, they had formations and generals, it was neat and very russian.

The Russian orthodox church would eventually come down on boxing by the 1500s but pretty much from 400-1500 boxing was held down by the Russians.

Alright but how did boxing move from Russia to England during the dark ages when boxing was satanic? Duels actually. As boxers from the east of Europe met with duelists from the west they brought with them boxing of course. So a man challenges you to a duel, you see he's got a sword but he challenged you, you're champion boxer back home, you get to pick the weapon and state you grounds. Of course you're going the say well, then, let's box. That's what they did anyway. Fisticuffs, the word came from this interaction. Fencing with fists was born of this.

The first account of boxing isn't from James Figg it's from a butcher and a gardiner. What had happened was the renaissance. You know, that period when the English thought it was super cool to go to places like Egypt, Greece, and Italy to dig things up and us them to inspire social changes? This is when boxing gets its name.

This fella Richard Dover starts to push the idea of olympic in England, it takes hold, men trained in the art of fencing with fists or fisticuff take notice to the similarities in their fighting styles and the greeks and more importantly the Romans as this is also when the Britons were starting to claim Roman heiriage. It was about 1630 at the height of Dover's influence.

The sword starts to fall out of fashion with duelists, great swordsman kind less and less pupils looking for sword training and find more and more hungry for pugilism.

By the 1720s James Figg wasn't trained in Russian boxing or ancient Greek boxing, he was trained in what came of it. I've forgotten the name of the man who trained and patroned Figg to the top
, I think it was Captain John Godfrey but I could be mistaken. Basically Figg's position was I will duel anyone at anytime for money and to entertain the onlookers. Weapon fighting being on it's last leg, even though Figg had way more sword fights than fist fight he's mostly and remember for his boxing.

From here I assume you know the story well, but, if you're curious I can actually run through the bare knuckle era, in brief, as well. You're probably aware of Figg enough to see how much I'm cutting from all this, I tried to not get too into details without becoming disconnected, I apologize if I missed that mark

Anyway, British boxing is different from its inspirations or influences but it is still inspired directly and indirectly by Greece, not anyone else. It all leads back to Greece and then ends there.






Do you know why boxers and hell at this point basically all athetely believe sex can take away their energy or drive to fight? Because Klietomachos, who unified the Pan-hellenic , Isthmus, Pythian, Namean, and Olympic, boxing, wrestling, and MMA championships without suffering so much as a single point loss and he said he was able to do such a feat because he abstained from sex.

There is nothing like that coming from pre-greco societies in boxing today. There is no lineage to them, no more than Gladiators have anything to do with boxing. Gladiators' trainers would have no influence on how Pygmachia champions fought, Pygmachos are who inspired the Rus not Gladiators. Pygmachos are who inspired the Brits, not gladiators.


To this day, boxing, is Apollo's sport.

[Marchegiano]

Its funny M: Even though we disagree about the lineal's importance, to me you are the authority on titles, and the history of how they have been sanctioned. I would, under the circumstances defer to your judgement, including about the lineal.

With that said here is my case for the lineal:

I believe that when fans are informed they see things like when a judges' decision is hogwash, or if there are extenuating circumstances to a victory, or loss. We need some governing bodies to oversee safety issues, but it should be obvious who the best fighters are, and what fights should determine the best fighter in the bunch.

Boxing is one of the few sports that allows for fighters to declare a title with no mechanism for having an agreed upon standing. We have so many titles running around. And these title organizations determine things that are not related to the best fighting the best at all times.

The lineal puts the power in the hands of the fans. It is flexible enough, deterministic enough, and has held sway long enough, that it becomes the only means of asserting the "King of the Hill" with no conditions.

Thanks bud.

I feel like it's similar to Marxism in that old cliche about how it's a lovely idea but in practice it is horrible.

I used to believe in lineal, I used to share the vehement hate for bodies most do, and I used to believe there was a lost honor the bare knuckle and early, non-body, champions held. I used to think Sullivan was undisputed. I used to believe a ton of things but when I look that's not my honest assessment.

You need a few things to care about lineal. Number one of them I think is you have to look at Sullivan's era as one to be admired. Simply put, I do not admire that era or the antics that lead boxing at that time.

Going backward in time just makes it worse.

So I don't really have any want in me to adhere to traditions or exalt traditions that used to guide the championship title.

The other big grab lineal has is the fan control. The thing about that is that's exactly what made bare knuckle and early queensberry such a dirty sport.

Yankee Sullivan beat the **** outta John Morrissey, and as a bloodied Morrissey was picking himself up Yankee, realizing John would not make the count, walked out of the ring and our of the building to DQ himself because the Dead Rabbits, Morrissey's gang, were ringside and armed with pistols.

That is your fan control for you.

Or how about when Jem Ward refused James Burke for not being english enough? Then again for not being rich enough? Jem Ward retired multiple times to avoid Burke, and when Burke won his vacant title rather than giving it to Burke Ward would take back his retirement and announce he is still champion. He took Burke's money, he got a man murdered, he fixed fights and was party to fixed fights, and, the public knew but since they liked him he was champion and remained champion even after Burke became champion in America. It's only posthumously Burke becomes champion when Ward ducks him and only posthumously Ward get stripped for ducking Burke. In their lives they were both called champions.

I said with the sanctioning bodies on this. Yes, they are corrupt and they have done some harm, but, they did a ****load of good too and I'm not so sure that can be said about lineal.

Lineal was so bad it made people think bodies were a good idea.

The history of this fan control makes me happy the lineal title has little real impact on boxing, like Ring.

The history of sanctioning bodies, regulations, trying to figure out how to keep people alive, and making clear avenues for success, that's a history I can respect.


The early body guys are like wild west gunslingers just rolled into town and going to clear these vermits out.


I love the idea, it's pure form, as an idea. In its practice I think no good can come of it because no good did come of it.


Champion's Prerogative...the idea a champion can just pick who the best challengers are That's ****.


Which is why fans argue so much, because lineal is actually **** and no one wants to adhere to those olden ways. They say number one and number two makes a new lineal, a new the man. There;s no ****ing ranking's in Sully's era....that's sanctioning body culture creeping back into the lineal idea because fans don't actually want the real article and they don't want it because it's even more corrupt than the body BS.

Retirement's another sticking point itself. They just made up retiring ends a lineal run, no precedent for that in the pre-body era. Plenty in the body era, when a body champ retired his belt is vacant, but, when the one lineal who retired unbeaten before bodies existed came back to boxing, he came back as champion. Soon as the IBU is created in 1910 now ever retired champion, including lineal, gives up their belt...so says some anyway. They say that not because it is lineal but because they like body culture and want to inject it into lineal even if they are not aware of this.


To me, and I promise this has nothing to do with Wilder or Floyd, the WBC is the entity that has earn respect. The bodies that would become the WBC are the bodies that cleaned up boxing. Then when they formalized as the single WBC they continued to be the body writing the rules and making the changes that put boxers' lives first.

I do not fault the WBC-Don King connection, Don King is the best era in boxing because he alone made the great fights.

Their new belt ****, I hate the ****ing **** of it, but, they saved lives....makes it a bit nominal.

The WBA follows the WBC's lead more often than not. The IBF and WBO are just WBA off shoots who couldn't agree on things like ranking. All three have 3kd rules or ten point musts options. WBC options. All three fight 12 rounds, those are WBC rounds.

**** man, the only reason why the WBA, IBF or WBO are world wide is because the NYSAC started that **** too. Otherwise they'd be regional bodies.

What's lineal given us? Frumpy white folk talking about "lick any sonuva***** in the building" then whispering except darkie? No offense to anyone.

What's the WBA given us but an argument that's so frustrating the lineal argument seems like a good idea?

No man, WBC, they cleaned up the old west feel of boxing and made it a rightly honorable sport, they put human lives ahead of coins plenty of times, they gathered bodies rather than created more.

I've been a clear Wilder fan and so that's easily confirmed. It'd take more effort, but, if one were to look at my history here from 2010 to now I was a Vitali fan too. WBC means something to me. WBA means more to me than IBF but it's still not even close to WBC. IBF is what it is, I recognize it because the WBC and WBA do. The WBO is lucky I give any ****s....I'm really getting pushed now.

After that honestly I care more about who wins polls here than any other titles. The boxing scene champions polls I tried, I did that because the opinions of my locals mean more to me than traditions or publications.

Lineal comes next, while I have my gripes I do love the idea of it. I do love me some history and tradition.

Ring, yes, RING, not TBRB, Ring comes next. Because Ring has history where was TBRB are a bunch of whiners with just as inconsistent rankings as anyone else.

then TBRB, who is just as bad as Ring but without the saving grace of being the history keepers for boxing from 1920 to the 2000s.

Boxrec next because while a computer is ****** it is fair in its ******ity.

ESPN because friday night fights, honestly if FNF came back and FNF had champions I might just say **** it and go with that. I loved FNF.

Boxing News and Boxing Monthly come next, they're about equal. They're okay, not any worse than any other publication or outlet, but, smaller I think. They've a small pool of writers.

The Police Gazette could return to boxing, they have bare knuckle. If they did I'd put them above Ring and below lineal. More historical than even Ring.




well that's two long ass posts back to back....I'm gonna take a break. Sorry I rambled a bit.