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Originally posted by billeau2
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What is called cheating is a big category of behaviors, some of which are easy to judge, some not so much. Lets look at some examples.
1) A guy loads his gloves with a substance. Well in the old days some types of hand treatments were used ubiquitiously by fighters for the purposes of not breaking the hand. This is different than a fighter putting cement in their glove to hit harder. the second action is cheating and is not defensive in nature, the first action is something that was necessary when gloves were smaller so that the hand would not break on the forehead. And if you ever fought full contact karate with no hand protection and reversed punched a forehead.... There was a need to protect the hands.
2) headbutting and elbowing. In the early days of boxing there was not a big problem with head butting because guys did not square up. Whenever a fighter comes in face forward hands up there is a chance for heads to clash. Its not deliberate so much as an occupational hazard. If a fighter uses the forehead deliberately (ive seen Holyfield do this) then this is cheating yes.
Elbows are used in boxing all the time! You redirect blows, push the guy off with them, put them on the neck. This has to be addressed by the ref and by the defensive tactics of the other fighter... A professional prize fighter must learn to deal with elbows using tactics. The exception to this is hitting with the elbow, that is cheating.
3) Holding and Hitting. This is part of professional prize fighting. Otherwise they would penalize a fighter for clinching. Clinching is a natural reaction to getting hit, protecting oneself. Its part of the sport at the professional level. Refs penalize Excessive holding...Not clinching at times.
Trying to hold the hand ties both fighters up, its also part of inside fighting. Getting the gloved hand neutralized against opponents body is a type of holding and it takes skill to do so, You can't grab someone with a boxing glove in a manner that totally stops their punching. Wrestling got position, using the shoulders to push...all part of the sport.
4) Weigh ins should be same day. Take the option to cheat away from the fighter. Period.
5) Roiding is a very complex problem. Roids that help an injury should be allowed. A lot of older fighters need that sort of help and it has been shown time and time again that most roids do little to help a fighter. fight better.
In terms of using roids for performance, this is complicated. I cant say that I have thought this through enough to come out as either for, or against all performance enhancers. We have to see how much cycling these drugs during training will be part of progress. I still maintain that even in the heavyweight division of a guy trained like fighters used to train, he would have an amazing advantage over others...even others who use enhancers. Show me a heavy weight who can punch hard, throw punches for 12 rounds continually, and stay on his toes...Not a muscle bound fighter who looks like a statue.
Hope this helps. These are not simple issues Bats.
1) A guy loads his gloves with a substance. Well in the old days some types of hand treatments were used ubiquitiously by fighters for the purposes of not breaking the hand. This is different than a fighter putting cement in their glove to hit harder. the second action is cheating and is not defensive in nature, the first action is something that was necessary when gloves were smaller so that the hand would not break on the forehead. And if you ever fought full contact karate with no hand protection and reversed punched a forehead.... There was a need to protect the hands.
2) headbutting and elbowing. In the early days of boxing there was not a big problem with head butting because guys did not square up. Whenever a fighter comes in face forward hands up there is a chance for heads to clash. Its not deliberate so much as an occupational hazard. If a fighter uses the forehead deliberately (ive seen Holyfield do this) then this is cheating yes.
Elbows are used in boxing all the time! You redirect blows, push the guy off with them, put them on the neck. This has to be addressed by the ref and by the defensive tactics of the other fighter... A professional prize fighter must learn to deal with elbows using tactics. The exception to this is hitting with the elbow, that is cheating.
3) Holding and Hitting. This is part of professional prize fighting. Otherwise they would penalize a fighter for clinching. Clinching is a natural reaction to getting hit, protecting oneself. Its part of the sport at the professional level. Refs penalize Excessive holding...Not clinching at times.
Trying to hold the hand ties both fighters up, its also part of inside fighting. Getting the gloved hand neutralized against opponents body is a type of holding and it takes skill to do so, You can't grab someone with a boxing glove in a manner that totally stops their punching. Wrestling got position, using the shoulders to push...all part of the sport.
4) Weigh ins should be same day. Take the option to cheat away from the fighter. Period.
5) Roiding is a very complex problem. Roids that help an injury should be allowed. A lot of older fighters need that sort of help and it has been shown time and time again that most roids do little to help a fighter. fight better.
In terms of using roids for performance, this is complicated. I cant say that I have thought this through enough to come out as either for, or against all performance enhancers. We have to see how much cycling these drugs during training will be part of progress. I still maintain that even in the heavyweight division of a guy trained like fighters used to train, he would have an amazing advantage over others...even others who use enhancers. Show me a heavy weight who can punch hard, throw punches for 12 rounds continually, and stay on his toes...Not a muscle bound fighter who looks like a statue.
Hope this helps. These are not simple issues Bats.
Question is whether you like fighters breaking the rules of boxing like Ward does (did)?
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