Comments Thread For: Arum Stays on The Fence in Lomachenko-Crawford P4P Debate

[kafkod]

Manny got legitimately beaten by Jeff Horn. I have zero interest in seeing him fight with Loma. Even the thought of it is depressing.

Loma needs to focus on unifying his division while he waits for the contract negotiations with Mikey Garcia to play out. Then he needs to work on unifying 135 while he adjusts to the higher weight before looking to take on Crawford at 140.

Loma is the best fighter of his generation and has the world at his feet. A fight with Pac would be so counter productive and cynical, I think a lot of people would be disappointed if it happened.

I don't begrudge fighters wanting to make money, and to take the occasional easy fight which also brings in the big dollars - but it has to be in between their legit attempts to prove themselves as the best.

But Horn is a huge WW, and he didn't outbox Manny, or even outfight him. He just used sheer size and aggression to bully the smaller man around the ring from start to finish.

A guy like Horn, who has a chin and just keeps charging in at you over and over again, is always going to be a nightmare for a smaller, older fighter who no longer has the legs to keep out of his way.

[Boxing Logic]

I think Loma is ranked above Crawford P4P and that it's not exactly debatable at this point in time by any normal measures of judging P4P. We can look at them one by one here:

Loma has three wins that are all better than Crawford's best win (Walters has more power than Postol P4P, more speed, and a better win since slightly past prime former P4P multi-weight champ Donaire is a better win than slightly past prime never P4P never world champ Matthysse who would have beaten Postol anyway if he didn't reinjure an old eye injury, so across the board Walters is a better win than Postol). Loma has also done that fighting at his normal weight (only weighs 6 to 8 pounds more on fight night than the weigh in weight), while Crawford is by Lomachenko's standards (since we have to compare their sizes vs the divisions they fight in in order to judge pound for pound) a natural middleweight who has been fighting at 135 and 140, who even if he did weigh in at 160 would still be more than 6 to 8 pounds higher than that on fight night, unlike Loma. And really, if you judge Crawford by the same standard as Lomachenko, and ask "what weight would Crawford be fighting at if he fought at a weight only 8 pounds lower than his normal weight?" then Crawford wouldn't even be a middleweight, he would be a super middleweight.

Lomachenko has far better wins despite fighting at his natural weight. Crawford has less top wins despite having the huge extra advantage of being a weight bully fighting far below his natural weight. The only advantage anyone has claimed Crawford has over Lomachenko is power, well now you know what that's about. Instead of comparing apples to oranges, let's see 177 pound Crawford punch some middleweights so we can compare apples to apples, and I'm guessing Crawford's power against those guys is actually far less than Lomachenko's at his weight class.

That's where everyone gets confused about the Loma-Crawford comparison. It's not their fault they're not aware of the details regarding weight, at least not if they don't claim to be hardcore fans, but they falsely equate Loma moving up to 135 with Crawford moving up to 147. In reality, Lomachenko at 126 was already smaller for that weight class than Crawford will be at 147. Crawford will be one of the biggest welterweights, which is saying something because there are many other weight bullies at welterweight too. Lomachenko fighting at 130 is already daring to be great, weight wise, much more than Crawford moving to 147, because Crawford is a much, much bigger welterweight than Lomachenko is even a super featherweight. For Loma to move to 135 would be the equivalent of Crawford moving not to 147, and not even to 154, but to 160, possibly even 168.

I mean, after bulking up more for the weight jump, Lomachenko will naturally be a 142 to 145 pound guy fighting at 135. And that is only after artificially bulking up. If you look at his actual natural weight when he turned pro as an already fully grown adult, he was 130 to 135 pounds. But now, if he moves up to 135, he will naturally be 145 pounds at most. In the ring, he will likely be no more than 143 pounds, where he'll be fighting guys who weigh up to 155, 12 pounds bigger than him.

Crawford on the other hand currently weighs 177 pounds, and is naturally 165 to 170 pounds at minimum. Let's say 168 for simplicity's sake. The biggest middleweights weigh in the high 170's, or rarely, 180 pounds in the ring, which is 12 pounds more than 168. So in order to be fighting at the same weight disadvantage in the ring that Loma would be if he fought at lightweight, Crawford would have to move up to middleweight. And remember, percentage wise, having a 12 pound disadvantage at lightweight is much more of a disadvantage than having a 12 pound disadvantage at middleweight. So that's why I was correct in pointing out that middleweight is actually the LOW estimate for where Crawford would have to go to equate to Loma fighting at lightweight. Going off Crawford's current weight, 177, and let's face it his natural weight would probably be much higher than that if he moved to middleweight (since we are comparing to Loma's weight IF he moved up, 145 max, rather than his natural adult weight of about 135, this is important. IF Crawford moved up to middleweight, he would also bulk up and the difference wouldn't be 170 to 145, like I just stated, but apples to apples it would actually 185 to 145)...

What that means is Crawford might actually have to fight at super middleweight in order to be fighting at the same weight disadvantage as Loma will be at 135. So just because Crawford started artificially low as a weight bully who was good at weight cutting does not mean that moving up to his third division is the same as Loma moving up to his third, just like 135 being Broner's second professional weight, and 160 being GGG's first professional weight, does not automatically mean that Broner was smaller for 135 than GGG is for 160. It's not where you start that count. That's just for propaganda and marketing. Some of these boxers that like to embellish will start artificially low so that they can perform in an artificially dominant way that makes their skills appear better than what they are, and so that they can then move "up" (but not really) and pretend they are fighting bigger guys. What counts is are you actually small for the weight class, or not? Loma will be tiny for 135, Crawford will still be huge for 147. For the 177 pound Crawford to be "tiny" at a weight class like Loma will be at 135, for him to do the same thing as Loma in that way, Crawford will have to move to either 160 or 168. That's not an opinion, that's math.

Now, a 30 to 40 pound difference between Crawford and Loma might SEEM crazy to you, but realize that Crawford just fought at 140, and currently weighs almost 180, lol. That would be precisely a 40 pound difference. He weighed 160 in the ring for that fight, which was his rehydrated body after a full camp of getting into shape and losing weight, so that means he was naturally something like already 170+ when he fought at 140. And now he is 177 with only a few months to go until he has to make 147, which means he may have even been more than that a few weeks ago.

So for me, as skilled as Crawford is, he has no top wins, Loma does. He's never fought even B+ level fighters with speed, Loma has. He passes the eye test better than almost everyone in boxing, but Loma is one of the few who do it better. There have been questions about Crawford's chin, despite fighting smaller guys on average, but zero questions about Lomachenko's so far despite fighting bigger guys or equally big guys on average. Top Rank has even intentionally matched Crawford against nothing but low KO% opposition ever since little Gamboa rocked him (besides Molina, Prescott etc who they knew were too slow to land even once), which implies that they also don't trust his chin. Then despite dominating low puncher guys like Postol, Crawford has played it extremely safe and gotten on his bike instead of drowning his opponents who were sitting ducks after being picked apart all night, which is another mark of a chinny fighter. Fighters who develop that style like Crawford, Rigo, Lara, Floyd, etc, do it for a resaon, because they feel like even against far inferior fighters, it could only take one shot to steal their win away. Lomachenko, GGG, etc do the opposite, pressing the attack late in the fight even when they've won every round so far and could just coast to a victory, because they don't seem worried about that. They feel they can take their tired, broken dwn opponent's punch anyway. Crawford does not.

And then of course, the fact that Loma has been just as dominant as Crawford, and against better opposition, but at much higher weights relative to his size than Crawford has. Crawford has never fought someone three weight classes bigger than him on fight night like Loma has, and taken their best shots. Instead Crawford fought someone who was probably three weight classes lighter than him in the ring, and that guy almost knocked him out. Ricky Burns also won multiple rounds against Crawford not in Crawford's 2nd pro fight, but 30 or so fights into his career, and if that was prime Lomachenko losing rounds to Ricky Burns, we would never hear the end of it and he would be permanently banned from P4P discussion on NSB and in the LDBC. Crawford also lost 4 rounds in a row to Gamboa, in addition to getting rocked multiple times.

So I think when you go down the list, Lomachenko beats Crawford in every single category that you have to consider in P4P rankings. The only one Crawford has an advantage on paper is power, but Lomachenko actually has a higher KO% despite not having a 10-cab-driver head start like Crawford did in his career, despite fighting at a much higher weight relative to his size than Crawford. So it might look like Crawford has more P4P power because he's fighting in a higher weight class, where guys already go down more often anyway, and then to top it off, because he's naturally 30+ pounds bigger than that weight class, but if you actually judge, does Lomachenko have more power by the standards of a natural 140 pound man, or does Crawford have more power by the standards of a natural 170 pound man, I think Lomachenko has more "pound for pound" power, or at best it's even. If Crawford ever goes up to middleweight or super middleweight while Lomachenko is at 135, then we might finally find out.

[Drew Bundini Br]

CRAWFORD is without question no.1 p4p fighter right now!!!! LOMO beats M.GARCIA then he becomes no.1

[Robbie Barrett]

................

Does anyone actually read Boxing Logic's posts. He puts so much effort in to them, i kind of feel bad when i just skip them. Too damn long.

[Boxing Logic]

CRAWFORD is without question no.1 p4p fighter right now!!!! LOMO beats M.GARCIA then he becomes no.1

Bad spelling, random exclamation points, and no evidence or logic to back up your opinion other than... well we can only guess.... If it looks a dummygraphic member, and if walks like one, and if it talks like one... I mean, I don't want to make assumptions... so I'll leave it there...

If you are interested in an actual logical comparison though, rather than biased favoritism based on factors that may have nothing to do with boxing, then read my post that's right above yours. Peace and Happy Holidays!

Edit: Oh **** there's another one!

Crawford is number one...period!!!!

Lol! Funny how the same trends keep repeating themselves... or sad... But, happy holidays.

[Boxing Logic]

Does anyone actually read Boxing Logic's posts. He puts so much effort in to them, i kind of feel bad when i just skip them. Too damn long.

Don't feel bad. I don't think it really matters who reads them actually. Plenty of people have in the past but if they have a racial bias, 99 out of 100 times it seems like nothing you say makes one bit of difference to them anyway. I guess I just like to put the posts out there anyway because I have, I don't know how to describe it, but something like an addiction to justice, to things being right. Whenever I see something happening, or some trend being pushed, that is unfair, or when I see people spreading something that is false or spun in a biased way, I just feel sort of a responsibility to set the record straight, every single time. It is like you said probably a waste of time, but I just like doing it for some reason. I don't like lies, or liars, or to see people falling for lies because they've fallen for faulty logic. Probably my only talent in life is that logic is like breathing for me, I can spot faulty logic, and double standard/no standards, from a mile away every single time. Thus, my username. So because I always see it, it always bothers me to see it being used and to see others falling for it, and I always want to point it out.

But as I said, even when you point it out, if people don't want to see the truth, then they will still find ways not to. That is probably the scariest thing I've learned, and the most disappointing. But what else can I do except try? If I don't say anything, the ******ity and the lies will just continue forever. I mean, it looks like they will no matter what I do, which as I said is what is so scary and disappointing and has be questioning human nature, but I want people to see the truth instead of falling for faulty logic, so I try. Maybe sometimes it helps...

[Madison Boxing]

Not really a tough call. Crawfords Not beaten anyone in the pound for pound top 20. But i guess he passes the 'eye test' just like rigo did who was also ranked ridiculously high despite having a wafer thin resume.

[Boxing Logic]

Crawford hands down, the other guy has a loss and has fought small overmatched guys

LOL. Yeah Rigo was overmatched because Loma is that good. Maybe you forgot, but just a few months ago many people were calling Rigo potential #1 pound for pound, "most feared," and he was apparently knocking out welterweights in sparring. It was said he had mythical power, and that he was known as the jaw breaker. It was said he would expose Lomachenko and break his face. It was said the only reason Lomachenko had a chance was size. And yet Lomachenko completely outskilled him and made him quit, just like natural super featherweight Jason Sosa who knocked out Javier Fortuna, Robert Easter Jr's next opponent at 135. Just like Loma did to Nicholas Walters, who is at least as bi as Loma.

As for Loma fighting smaller opponents, Crawford is 177 pounds right now even though he just fought at 140, and will be fighting at 147 next. Loma is 145 right now max. One guy has been fighting 30-40 pounds lower than his natural weight, the other has been very close to his. Read my post, I broke down everything for you.

PS. You exposed your bias when you tried to belittle Lomachenko's wins by claiming his opponents were all smaller than him (completely false), but then when you also tried to use Lomachenko's "loss" to denigrate his P4P ranking, you completely left out the fact that his opponent in that fight was 11 pounds bigger in the ring. Using a lie about size when you think it serves your argument, but then leaving out the truth about size when it doesn't serve your argument... that is called a double standard and is a very common occurrence when extremely biased, sometimes low intelligence people attempt to make logical arguments. Hopefully this helps you improve on that in the future, so that you don't expose your biases next time you try to convince people of something you wish was. Happy holidays!

[MrClutch85]

Any fighter with 11 fights shouldn't be mentioned as number 1 P4P. My pick would be Crawford because he became undisputed champion at 140 great accomplishment

[Sledgeweather17]

"Natural weight" doesn't necessarily mean "walk-around weight".

People use natural weight as what their weight class would be at the time. Pacquiao who realistically walks around at in the low 150s can probably still make 140 easily.

It was the same case with Mayweather who said he's naturally 150-151 - no he's not. Floyd walks around at about 160. If Floyd actually walked around at 150 like his FIomo fan base said - he would have made 144 against Marquez easily.

#TrollAlert

That's a lie. Floyd posted a picture of him on the scale a year after he fought Berto, and he was 160lbs, wearing a full tracksuit, a cap, sneakers, and with cell phone and all in his pockets.

Clearly he walks around at way less than 160lbs if that is what he weighs with all that extra weight of clothing and shoes etc etc.