Hopkins or Toney - who was better?

[IronDanHamza]

Twice against Mercado and when else? I can't remember any, other than when he was late into his 40s. Also, your response that Hopkins' footwork isn't anything special is irrelevant because it was considerably better than Toney's, so much for Toney's talent. Hopkins was also physically stronger and you couldn't control him in the clinch, why is that lost when measuring their talent?

Why is it even relevant anyway? Like I said, Whitaker was dropped more times than Toney are we going to claim that Toney has a better defense than Whitaker now???

Another ****** argument.

Can you name an area where Toney was better than Hopkins? Because I'm struggling. Handspeed?

[TheBoxingXpert]

It seems like Hopkins is taking the lead. That's cool. The old boss deserves it.

[elina jhon]

Hopkins or Toney - who was better?

yeah !Toney is better ,he can win ...

[bojangles1987]

Absolutely. Definitely amongst my top 5 all time robberies.

But what you'll get here is the "excuses", "he was drained", "he had cramps", "he had the flu", "he had to cut 100 lbs in 3 weeks"

Same case against Drake Thazdi, when you get chance give that a watch. How that was an MD I will never know because Thazdi CLEARLY won that fight.

And once again, same excuses. Roy Jones, same excuses.

Merqui Sosa, Sanderline Williams, same excuses.

Why do Toney's clear as day numerous flaws NEVER get the blame? Why?

Also, when you get chance go and watch Reggie Johnson box his ears off. The first 6 rounds of that fight are an absolute masterclass from Reggie. I won't stand here and call that fight a robbery because Reggie did his best impression of Oscar and Tito and coasted the second half of the fight thinking he had it in the bag but I will say Toney was EXTREMELY lucky to get that decision.

Johnson, Sosa, Williams, hell even the two Griffin fights. These were all close fights I won't dispute that. But what every single one of those fights have in common is Toney showed glaring flaws in ALL of them and showed in every single one of those fights that he's simply not elite. He's not that level.

And during the Tiberi fight, the commentators were talking about Toney looking bad and being behind in previous fights before coming back to win it, so they thought the same would happen against Tiberi.

I mean, you want to talk a fighter being unmotivated or unprepared or attribute all these excuses, at least you could do that in say, Roy Jones's case. He came back in a rematch and slaughtered Griffin in a round, Toney having the exact same problems in 2 fights with Griffin and all his fights suggests that motivation or discipline isn't the problem. Toney's talents and skills are.

I guess the good just looked so good in his biggest performances that the people either don't hear about the bad or ignore it. He does have a very pretty inside game, quick hands, good power, and it is impressive how he managed success all the way up to HW. But when you look at the fighters he had major problems with during his supposed prime, I'm finding it harder and harder to put him up there where I used to.

Compare that to what Hopkins did to Trinidad or Tarver. Looking at the totality of his career it's hard to imagine Toney dominating a fighter like Tarver, let alone Trinidad. Then Hopkins somehow thrived in those years as an old man off of his skills, smarts, and spoiling. At age 50 dude was still the best win a fighter like Kovalev has.

[Weltschmerz]

Voted Toney.

[IronDanHamza]

And during the Tiberi fight, the commentators were talking about Toney looking bad and being behind in previous fights before coming back to win it, so they thought the same would happen against Tiberi.

I mean, you want to talk a fighter being unmotivated or unprepared or attribute all these excuses, at least you could do that in say, Roy Jones's case. He came back in a rematch and slaughtered Griffin in a round, Toney having the exact same problems in 2 fights with Griffin and all his fights suggests that motivation or discipline isn't the problem. Toney's talents and skills are.

I guess the good just looked so good in his biggest performances that the people either don't hear about the bad or ignore it. He does have a very pretty inside game, quick hands, good power, and it is impressive how he managed success all the way up to HW. But when you look at the fighters he had major problems with during his supposed prime, I'm finding it harder and harder to put him up there where I used to.

Compare that to what Hopkins did to Trinidad or Tarver. Looking at the totality of his career it's hard to imagine Toney dominating a fighter like Tarver, let alone Trinidad. Then Hopkins somehow thrived in those years as an old man off of his skills, smarts, and spoiling. At age 50 dude was still the best win a fighter like Kovalev has.

Agree with everything except looking so good in his biggest performances.

What would you say are his biggest performances?

For me, he has 3 good fights against top level guys;

Nunn - Looked absolutely awful whilst getting beaten clearly before the stoppage. Fair play he forced the stoppage and it's obviously a good win but he did not look good in that fight

McCallum 1 - Great fight against an ATG, a draw was fair IMO as I also had it a draw. Second fight Toney got the decision but in my eyes and the eyes of most, he lost

Jirov - another great fight and a war against a overhyped opponent but far from dominant.

I wouldn't say he looked "great" in any of those fights.

The only time Toney looked great was when he fought decent-solid opposition like Barkley, Littles and Prince Charles. When he stepped up he didn't have a single dominant performance and even at that level and lower he often struggled or lost.

[bojangles1987]

Agree with everything except looking so good in his biggest performances.

What would you say are his biggest performances?

For me, he has 3 good fights against top level guys;

Nunn - Looked absolutely awful whilst getting beaten clearly before the stoppage. Fair play he forced the stoppage and it's obviously a good win but he did not look good in that fight

McCallum 1 - Great fight against an ATG, a draw was fair IMO as I also had it a draw. Second fight Toney got the decision but in my eyes and the eyes of most, he lost

Jirov - another great fight and a war against a overhyped opponent but far from dominant.

I wouldn't say he looked "great" in any of those fights.

The only time Toney looked great was when he fought decent-solid opposition like Barkley, Littles and Prince Charles. When he stepped up he didn't have a single dominant performance and even at that level and lower he often struggled or lost.

I think he looked better in the Nunn fight than you do, and just the fact that he could compete and arguably beat someone like McCallum makes people think he's great, especially without the context of the rest of his career. There's a huge divide between beating Michael Nunn and losing to the fighters he lost to that makes you want to find excuses for it.

But yeah, those being the best fights he ever managed makes his reputation harder to defend. It doesn't match up with the reality of Toney.

[bojangles1987]

I'm trying to imagine what jackasses like realpugilist or Nay Sayer would say if Golovkin got his ass kicked by Dominic Wade or Osamanu Adama. They sure as hell wouldn't defend him like they defend Toney, who lost to fighters just as bad, and maybe worse.

[IronDanHamza]

I'm trying to imagine what jackasses like realpugilist or Nay Sayer would say if Golovkin got his ass kicked by Dominic Wade or Osamanu Adama. They sure as hell wouldn't defend him like they defend Toney, who lost to fighters just as bad, and maybe worse.

Very true.

Then we have Sugar Kaine whatever rating Jirov highly whilst calling Golovkin a hype job

[Mr.MojoRisin']

juicing doesn't turn you into a 20 year old again. it allows you to train at a good level when you're in your 40's, and damn near 50. Learn about PEDs, before you say ignorant ****.

Sounds like you need to take your own advice.

You don't have proof that Hopkins was on PEDs and honestly it's pretty ****** that you even mentioned it. Have you ever watched an old Hopkins fight and then a new one? He is a shell of what he was. If you don't think PEDs help at least maintain strength, speed, and power then you are delusional man. Show me some evidence that Hopkins juiced and then we can talk.

Learn about PEDs, before you say ignorant ****.