Hopkins or Toney - who was better?

[IronDanHamza]

ironically he represents Kazakhstan like Golovkin...

Correct.

Is there a point here because I seem to have missed it.

[Lester Tutor]

Correct.

Is their a point here because I seem to have missed it.

He literally beat no one of note in his career.

take your time. NSB has its culture.

[CatchAndShoot]

Hopkins speed, power, and strength all went down as he got older. If he was juicing then he needs a refund.

Lol just because you push a guy at a presser doesn't mean you are juicing its called building up the hype.

juicing doesn't turn you into a 20 year old again. it allows you to train at a good level when you're in your 40's, and damn near 50. Learn about PEDs, before you say ignorant ****.

[TheCell8]

Toney was more talented but Bernard worked harder.

[bojangles1987]

After all the talk about the Tiberi fight being one of the worst robberies IronDan has seen, I had to watch it. That **** was disgraceful. Tiberi obviously, obviously won. He whipped Toney's ass. I can't believe the ref took a point for low blows without ever saying a word beforehand. Along with the decision that stinks of corruption.

I can't imagine Hopkins getting his ass kicked like that after he developed into a world class fighter.

[IronDanHamza]

After all the talk about the Tiberi fight being one of the worst robberies IronDan has seen, I had to watch it. That **** was disgraceful. Tiberi obviously, obviously won. He whipped Toney's ass. I can't believe the ref took a point for low blows without ever saying a word beforehand. Along with the decision that stinks of corruption.

I can't imagine Hopkins getting his ass kicked like that after he developed into a world class fighter.

Absolutely. Definitely amongst my top 5 all time robberies.

But what you'll get here is the "excuses", "he was drained", "he had cramps", "he had the flu", "he had to cut 100 lbs in 3 weeks"

Same case against Drake Thazdi, when you get chance give that a watch. How that was an MD I will never know because Thazdi CLEARLY won that fight.

And once again, same excuses. Roy Jones, same excuses.

Merqui Sosa, Sanderline Williams, same excuses.

Why do Toney's clear as day numerous flaws NEVER get the blame? Why?

Also, when you get chance go and watch Reggie Johnson box his ears off. The first 6 rounds of that fight are an absolute masterclass from Reggie. I won't stand here and call that fight a robbery because Reggie did his best impression of Oscar and Tito and coasted the second half of the fight thinking he had it in the bag but I will say Toney was EXTREMELY lucky to get that decision.

Johnson, Sosa, Williams, hell even the two Griffin fights. These were all close fights I won't dispute that. But what every single one of those fights have in common is Toney showed glaring flaws in ALL of them and showed in every single one of those fights that he's simply not elite. He's not that level.

[Johnwoo8686]

Because Tiberi clearly beat Toney in one of the biggest robberies of all time that's why. Or are you going to pretend that isn't the case?

You're referencing other men's opinions. That's not even an argument. It's he said she said garbage.

Your argument is literally "Freddie Roach said it" ok? So I'll ask you for the third time; Do you take Freddie Roach's word as gospel on everything then?

Roy Jones said James Toney is the best fighter he's faced. Yeah...right. That sounds like honesty if I ever saw it. We all know fighters are honest about the best they've faced. It always seems to be the fighters they beat easily, strange.

Hopkins said he's more talented and you've equated that to Hopkins saying he's better.

Even if all three were true all they are are other men's opinions anyway. That's not even an argument.

No, why would I take Freddie Roach's word as gospel on everything? Freddie knows both fighters better than you or I personally and has worked with both fighters. He's been in the gym with boys and has trained world champions. He's seen things that you and I have not seen and his opinion is that Toney is better. An awarded boxing trainer's opinion should count for something.
Stop using the word "argument" when I'm stating facts. You are the one arguing.

I just happen to agree with his opinion. Because from what I've seen Toney was better in his prime than Hopkins. He Had the better handspeed, better combination punching, fluidity, and head movement.

[IronDanHamza]

No, why would I take Freddie Roach's word as gospel on everything? Freddie knows both fighters better than you or I personally and has worked with both fighters. He's been in the gym with boys and has trained world champions. He's seen things that you and I have not seen and his opinion is that Toney is better. An awarded boxing trainer's opinion should count for something.
Stop using the word "argument" when I'm stating facts. You are the one arguing.

I just happen to agree with his opinion. Because from what I've seen Toney was better in his prime than Hopkins. He Had the better handspeed, better combination punching, fluidity, and head movement.

Right so Freddie Roach's word is gospel when it suits you then basically?

You're stating facts? You are literally doing nothing but showing me someone else's opinion.

[MrRolltide91]

Both.......

[Doctor_Tenma]

You clearly didn't read what I said. I said Toney had better punching power and better handspeed in his prime. Hopkins footwork was never anything special, hes been cornered and dropped numerous times in his career. In Toney's prime he was rarely ever dropped. The Jones knockdown was one of the few. Hopkins defense relied on spoiling and clinching while Toney relied on rolling and slipping punches.

You heard the man say it himself, Toney was more talented. And to put the nail in the coffin Freddie Roach trained both Hopkins and Toney and he said Toney was the most talented guy he ever trained, not even Pacquiao was as naturally talented in his eyes. You think you know boxing better than Roach?

Twice against Mercado and when else? I can't remember any, other than when he was late into his 40s. Also, your response that Hopkins' footwork isn't anything special is irrelevant because it was considerably better than Toney's, so much for Toney's talent. Hopkins was also physically stronger and you couldn't control him in the clinch, why is that lost when measuring their talent?