The Penalty For Being Too Good (Rigondeaux, Golovkin, Ward)

[Jubei]

Nobody except a couple hardcore boxing fans care about Rigo,

Only a couple fans care about Ward.

A ton of people care about GGG.

Hard to compare these three. GGG is avoided because he destroys an opponent, but at least you get well paid and get alot of exposure and you will definitely be in an exciting fight.

If you fight Rigo, you will be in a terribly boring fight and nobody really cares and you get little cash.

If you fight Ward, well you might fight in front of a alot of empty seats in oakland on a bizarre network and you will pretty much give up all advantages to Ward.

Huge difference between the three. I still don't know why Ward didn't want to try to fight DeGale, Badou Jack or one of the Dirrel brothers. Pretty sure he couldnt make 168. Ward was never really avoided at his weightclass, even now Barrera called him out long ago and it took forever to make that fight.

[The Big Dunn]

It's all a bunch of he say/she say. Froch called out GGG too but do you really think he had any intention of fighting him? Fact remains, these fights didn't happen for whatever reason and if Ward was a lesser skilled/big draw; they probably would've happened.

But we're getting off track. The purpose of this thread wasn't a "who ducked who" back and forth. The point is, when you are an elite fighter and you don't generate lottery style paydays, you have to make concessions. Ward did not make concessions and his career was stagnated. He refused to travel, he refused to give in on weight and he expected the big fights to come to him.

When you are that good and offer no financial reward, you need to trust in your skills and give up advantages.

If you look at examples like Floyd, Bhop, and Kovalev its hard to argue against the point made in the 2nd paragraph.

All made concessions, all won the fights where they made major concessions, and all were rewarded subsequently because they won in spite of the disadvantage.

[Irony123]

If you look at examples like Floyd, Bhop, and Kovalev its hard to argue against the point made in the 2nd paragraph.

All made concessions, all won the fights where they made major concessions, and all were rewarded subsequently because they won in spite of the disadvantage.

That's true, but then there are other great fighters who have made career ending concessions. Chad Dawson was a very good fighter and could have been great, but after he went down in weight to fight Ward he was never the same.

some concessions pay off, some end careers... especially weight related concessions.

[-PBP-]

Why are quoting half the post after railing on me so hard originally?

If we accept that it was 100% his promoter's fault (which is heavily debatable), getting a better promoter will make him more marketable. Would it make Frampton fight him right now? Probably not. But in a year or two?

Why should he have to wait a year or two? They are #1 and 2. It should happen NOW. And besides, what does this have to do with anything in the opening post? Let's keep this on track:

1. He is too good and because of that, he can't land the big fights and needs to make concessions like moving up in weight for example.

You compared him to Golovkin.

Oh gawd. Here we go again.

It took them years to try to build him up. Maravilla's promoter once said "just because 100 people on twitter want him to fight Golovkin doesn't mean I'll make the match". Fast forward that 2 years, and Canelo says he'll fight him at a catchweight, Floyd mentions him every month, and he was able to offer an outrageous (~what was it, 3.5m?) purse to BJ Saunders for a unification match.

Do you think any of those would have happened if he didn't take the bull by the horns and switched promoters (excluding the fact that Universum went bankrupt)?

Well great. Give him a cookie. But fact remains, he's a great fighter, he has yet to land a big fight, he's had trouble getting guys in the ring with him and in order to get the Canelo fight in September, he will have to make concessions.

You're absolutely right in that being a KO artist is an easier sell. But don't try telling me that Rigo's completely blameless from the ****show he found himself in, or that his style is the #1 reason he's a tough sell. (See Floyd).

Again, nothing prevented Frampton, Quigg or Santa Cruz from fighting Rigo. He did not price themselves out of any of those fights. They didn't fight him because he is too good and leagues above them. They know that and their promoters know that.

[-PBP-]

1 - i agree with what you said above
2 - when you are bad and not a big draw and don't give concessions the same thing will happen to you
3 - Reason i explored Ward's situation is because he was one of the points in proving your hypothesis - i just didn't think he was a good one to use to prove your point because the "Too Good" isn't why the fights didn't happen its the "not a big draw and not giving up any concessions"

For example with GGG (As you know i am a big fan) he rarely ever asks for any concessions, but he isn't a big draw in a sense that a regular opponent will not make over 1 million, aside from that his opponenets rarely fight at a disadvantage (i.e. gloves, location, ring size, judges, referees etc.)

Rigo also rarely asks for any concessions he is even considered less of a draw than GGG and is also very good.

Bottom line is i agree with you on the concept of being punished for being too good. (and by punished, ducked and not able to get the big fights) I just don't agree that ward was punished for being too good, he was punished for other stuff more so.

You got it backwards. I said they NEED to make concessions because it's something that comes with the territory when you are that good.

Rigo needs to move up in weight, travel and/or take heavy pay cuts.

GGG will likely have to come down in weight to get Canelo to fight him, travel to the UK to get Saunders to fight him, fight off network to get Jacobs to fight him, or move up where bigger fighters may be more confident in beating him. .

Ward had to move up and he did. His career was stagnant because of his refusal to travel and move up in weight.

[The Big Dunn]

That's true, but then there are other great fighters who have made career ending concessions. Chad Dawson was a very good fighter and could have been great, but after he went down in weight to fight Ward he was never the same.

some concessions pay off, some end careers... especially weight related concessions.

You make a very good point as well. Chad should never have gone to 168 for the Ward fight but the run he had before that loss to pascal, UD diaconu (sp) then the Bhop fiasco and subsequent win (like UD or MD) had turned fans against him.

[The Gambler1981]

Boxing is a game of making things happen and if a guy is good enough they will overcome. A guy may get lucky one possibly twice with defining fights falling into their lap but even then a fighter better grab that opportunity with both hands and not get used to that happening because it is the exception.

It goes both way too because you can only big time a slightly lesser player so much and generally speaking that is pay because as long as the bigger star concedes some money to grease the wheels the big fights will happen. From a the lesser guys side conceding on everything then beating that guys ass is how a guy really moves the ball forward on their career.

In almost any fight situation in boxing if there is a will there is a way to make something happen, and if that will isn't there to do everything to make a fight happen then fights won't be there. Boxing is not fair in this way and will never be fair, but once both fighters are in the ring it is pretty fair because none of that stuff can save a guy from an ass whoppin if the other guy has the ability to give it.

[Deevel916]

Good thread and I agree Rigo and Golovkin both need to move up like Ward is doing.

It's not "moving up" when you can no longer make the weight. Ward himself said that he has to cut weight just to make 175. I think its fair to say that he's a LHW.

[-PBP-]

Nobody except a couple hardcore boxing fans care about Rigo,

Only a couple fans care about Ward.

A ton of people care about GGG.

Hard to compare these three. GGG is avoided because he destroys an opponent, but at least you get well paid and get alot of exposure and you will definitely be in an exciting fight.

If you fight Rigo, you will be in a terribly boring fight and nobody really cares and you get little cash.

If you fight Ward, well you might fight in front of a alot of empty seats in oakland on a bizarre network and you will pretty much give up all advantages to Ward.

Huge difference between the three. I still don't know why Ward didn't want to try to fight DeGale, Badou Jack or one of the Dirrel brothers. Pretty sure he couldnt make 168. Ward was never really avoided at his weightclass, even now Barrera called him out long ago and it took forever to make that fight.

This is why it's tough dealing with Golovkin fans. They come in here bashing other fighters and aguing about who is the bigger draw. That has nothing do with this.

Rigo can't land a fight at 122. If he wants to get his career on track, he needs to move up.

GGG can't get a big fight at 160, if he wants to progress he needs to concede to Canelo's demands, travel to the UK for Saunders, make the Jacobs fight happen or move up.

Ward's refusal to make concessions stagnated his career. He thought he was the shot caller because of his skill level but didn't understand that in order to get the best fighters in the ring with you, you have to give in.


That's the premise of this thread. Not kissing GGG's ass because he has the HBO machine behind him.

[Deevel916]

When fighters duck Rigo its "shame on them" and rightfully so. But when fighters duck/avoid/vacate belts to not fight GGG somehow its GGG's fault that there's a lack of quality named opponents on his resume.