The Penalty For Being Too Good (Rigondeaux, Golovkin, Ward)

[-PBP-]

I completely agree with the idea. Each fighter had their own challenges because of how good they are, only thing i will say is that Ward is out of place in this conversation. Yes he is very good but i don't recall anyone ducking him (unless you consider GGG not taking the fight as ducking).

Whoever wanted to fight Ward had to make concessions, also it is well documented that there are a handful of high profile fighters who wanted to fight Ward and it was usually Ward who didn't want to fight someone (i.e. Bute, Stevenson, Degale... Degale might have not been possible but the other two sure were)

Without getting into it to specifically Rigo and GGG are in the same boat.

PBP, how do you feel that Ward was punished for being too good?

I didn't use the word "duck" in my opening post. My point is, you have 3 elite fighters whose careers are stagnant because they can't get contenders to fight them and aren't making concessions. Ward's career has been stagnant while waiting for people to fight him at 168. He was waiting for a Froch rematch, waiting for Chavez Jr. and waiting for Golovkin. But none of those guys took on the opportunity because Ward is a risky fight that does not pay off. Isn't DeGale managed by Eddie Hearn? You REALLY think they had any interest in that fight?

If Ward had drawing power, he could have parked himself at 168 and everybody would want to fight him. Mayweather, Pacquiao and Wlad never had problems getting fights and staying active because the payday was worth the risk.

His career has been stagnant because he hasn't made concessions; just like GGG and Rigo. He's finally done something about it and moved up in weight where he has a monumental challenge awaiting him.

[The Big Dunn]

you aren't being honest with yourself. its sad to see really. you know ggg tried to fight ward and froch years ago and they both said no. you know ggg became mandatory to the wbc in november of 2014. he didn't suddenly wanted to focus on unification. why make up wild stories about how he suddently wanted to focus on unification? you see this is bias. i wouldn't say ward suddenlty wanted to fight bums without evidence. we have evidence on who he tried to fight and why hbo turned them down. please follow the sequence of events before posting wild conjecture.

YOu are omitting a number of other things that occurred that must be factored in when determining if GGG and HBO avoided a Ward fight.

We also have evidence on who GGG tried to fight and who he didn't. We also have the quotes from GGG and his team.

I have enough information to reach the conclusion that GGG and HBO avoided Ward. If you do not, fine. I just find that interesting because with other fighters, you have less information but are able to reach a definitive conclusion.

[boliodogs]

I agree with what you said. GGG tries hard to fight the best possible middleweights. He can't get the best to fight him because as you said he is a very high risk low reward guy to fight. The top guys don't want to fight a guy who doesn't make them that much money who will probably knock them out. Rigo and Ward are so hard to beat and they don't bring big money to their opponents either.

[-Kev-]

GGG has been called out from left to right, Lara, Ward, Mora.

[Irony123]

I didn't use the word "duck" in my opening post. My point is, you have 3 elite fighters whose careers are stagnant because they can't get contenders to fight them and aren't making concessions. Ward's career has been stagnant while waiting for people to fight him at 168. He was waiting for a Froch rematch, waiting for Chavez Jr. and waiting for Golovkin. But none of those guys took on the opportunity because Ward is a risky fight that does not pay off. Isn't DeGale managed by Eddie Hearn? You REALLY think they had any interest in that fight?

If Ward had drawing power, he could have parked himself at 168 and everybody would want to fight him. Mayweather, Pacquiao and Wlad never had problems getting fights and staying active because the payday was worth the risk.

His career has been stagnant because he hasn't made concessions; just like GGG and Rigo. He's finally done something about it and moved up in weight where he has a monumental challenge awaiting him.

i dont know exactly what happened with Ward and Froch two, but i thought this wasn't Frochs fault, he told Ward to come to Britain to make the fight, and Ward refused. Degale i know he called him out an he is in his division but again, boxing politics might have prevented that fight (not necessarily the skill level). Golovkin fight didn't happen not because Ward's skill (which he has plenty off) but because of other reasons like, Canelo?Cotto fight on the Horizon, Lemiux ppv signed. Chavez Jr (that one i dont know about i really don't remember much about Chavez vs. Ward talks. when did they take place?

[Boxfan83]

For all of you with short attention spans, I bolded my main points.

In 2004, 3 star Olympians emerged and had the world of boxing heavily anticipating their next moves:

Guillermo Rigondeaux (2X gold medalist)
Gennady Golovkin (Silver medalist)
Andre Ward (Gold Medalist)

Rigondeaux hit the fast track. Won a title in 9 fights, unified titles/lineal champion in 11 and defeated a top 5 pound for pound future hall of famer.

Golovkin wasn't so lucky. Made some bad business moves early in his career and didn't hit the ground running until later. Still was able to unify titles and clean out much of his division.

Ward like Rigo also got off to an excellent start. Was fortunate enough to have a tournament that forced the top guys to fight each other and came out on top. His problem, after beating Froch, Kessler, Bika and Abraham, there was no one left for him to fight. (lol @ Boo-Tay)

So in summary, Rigo, Golovkin and Ward did damage in their divisions, unified titles and became the man to beat in their division. So what's the problem?

------------------

Rigondeaux, Golovkin and Ward are too good. Head and shoulders above anybody that walked through their divisions. Usually when you have a fighter head and shoulders above everybody in his division, everybody wants to fight him. But by fighting Mayweather, Pacquiao and Wlad, you got mega paydays. By fighting Rigo, Golovkin and Ward, you get an ass kicking, look silly and leave with a couple hundred grand. Who wants to do that?

So what happens? All of these "inferior contenders": The Santa Cruz's, Frampton's, Quigg's, Avalos', Sturms, N'Dam's, etc. avoid fighting the best guy in the division because:

1. They can't win because they aren't good enough and,
2. They can get bigger paydays taking easier fights

That's all there is to it. If you believe you can knock off the top dog, you fight him. Donaire fought Rigo because he knew he could win. Canelo fought Lara because he knew he could win. These guys were way bigger stars and way more accomplished than the divas you see today.

So my question is:

Why do we want to see this fights in the first place?

Frampton/Quigg/Avalos/Santa Cruz can't beat Rigondeaux
Jacobs/Quillin/Sturm/N'Dam/Martinez/Cotto can't beat Golovkin

It's a waste of time. That's why.....

Golovkin and Rigo need to take the Andre Ward route, take matters into their own hands and find the big fights themselves. Great fighters need to lure in the competition by making themselves more vulnerable and giving concessions.

That's just the price great fighters have to pay. The Penalty for Being Too Good.

They all made terrible managerial and promotional choices. GGG probably made the best moves financially at the time but had they signed with GBP, TR, or PBC theyd be more than what they are now...

[emre belozoglu]

i dont know exactly what happened with Ward and Froch two, but i thought this wasn't Frochs fault, he told Ward to come to Britain to make the fight, and Ward refused. Degale i know he called him out an he is in his division but again, boxing politics might have prevented that fight (not necessarily the skill level). Golovkin fight didn't happen not because Ward's skill (which he has plenty off) but because of other reasons like, Canelo?Cotto fight on the Horizon, Lemiux ppv signed. Chavez Jr (that one i dont know about i really don't remember much about Chavez vs. Ward talks. when did they take place?

Before Froch retired he only wanted the fight in Nottingham ward was willing to go to the UK just not frocks hometown

[-PBP-]

i dont know exactly what happened with Ward and Froch two, but i thought this wasn't Frochs fault, he told Ward to come to Britain to make the fight, and Ward refused. Degale i know he called him out an he is in his division but again, boxing politics might have prevented that fight (not necessarily the skill level). Golovkin fight didn't happen not because Ward's skill (which he has plenty off) but because of other reasons like, Canelo?Cotto fight on the Horizon, Lemiux ppv signed. Chavez Jr (that one i dont know about i really don't remember much about Chavez vs. Ward talks. when did they take place?

It's all a bunch of he say/she say. Froch called out GGG too but do you really think he had any intention of fighting him? Fact remains, these fights didn't happen for whatever reason and if Ward was a lesser skilled/big draw; they probably would've happened.

But we're getting off track. The purpose of this thread wasn't a "who ducked who" back and forth. The point is, when you are an elite fighter and you don't generate lottery style paydays, you have to make concessions. Ward did not make concessions and his career was stagnated. He refused to travel, he refused to give in on weight and he expected the big fights to come to him.

When you are that good and offer no financial reward, you need to trust in your skills and give up advantages.

[j0zef]

So let's say he does change promoters. Does that make Frampton or Quigg fight him? Would that soften Leo Santa Cruz's demand of $3 million to fight him? Absolutely not. There are no promotional barriers preventing Rigondeaux from fighting Carl Framption right now. He's being avoided because he is too good.

You mention these multi-million dollar offers...well...HE JUST ****ING SIGNED ONE WITH THE PEOPLE HYDE WAS WORKING WITH!!!! What has changed???

It's the same damn situation except: GGG knocks people out. Rigo is a boxer and outpoints guys. So the guy that knocks people out is the easier sell.

Why are quoting half the post after railing on me so hard originally?

If we accept that it was 100% his promoter's fault (which is heavily debatable), getting a better promoter will make him more marketable. Would it make Frampton fight him right now? Probably not. But in a year or two?

You compared him to Golovkin. It took them years to try to build him up. Maravilla's promoter once said "just because 100 people on twitter want him to fight Golovkin doesn't mean I'll make the match". Fast forward that 2 years, and Canelo says he'll fight him at a catchweight, Floyd mentions him every month, and he was able to offer an outrageous (~what was it, 3.5m?) purse to BJ Saunders for a unification match.

Do you think any of those would have happened if he didn't take the bull by the horns and switched promoters (excluding the fact that Universum went bankrupt)?

You're absolutely right in that being a KO artist is an easier sell. But don't try telling me that Rigo's completely blameless from the ****show he found himself in, or that his style is the #1 reason he's a tough sell. (See Floyd).

[Irony123]

It's all a bunch of he say/she say. Froch called out GGG too but do you really think he had any intention of fighting him? Fact remains, these fights didn't happen for whatever reason and if Ward was a lesser skilled/big draw; they probably would've happened.

But we're getting off track. The purpose of this thread wasn't a "who ducked who" back and forth. The point is, when you are an elite fighter and you don't generate lottery style paydays, you have to make concessions. Ward did not make concessions and his career was stagnated. He refused to travel, he refused to give in on weight and he expected the big fights to come to him.

When you are that good and offer no financial reward, you need to trust in your skills and give up advantages.

1 - i agree with what you said above
2 - when you are bad and not a big draw and don't give concessions the same thing will happen to you
3 - Reason i explored Ward's situation is because he was one of the points in proving your hypothesis - i just didn't think he was a good one to use to prove your point because the "Too Good" isn't why the fights didn't happen its the "not a big draw and not giving up any concessions"

For example with GGG (As you know i am a big fan) he rarely ever asks for any concessions, but he isn't a big draw in a sense that a regular opponent will not make over 1 million, aside from that his opponenets rarely fight at a disadvantage (i.e. gloves, location, ring size, judges, referees etc.)

Rigo also rarely asks for any concessions he is even considered less of a draw than GGG and is also very good.

Bottom line is i agree with you on the concept of being punished for being too good. (and by punished, ducked and not able to get the big fights) I just don't agree that ward was punished for being too good, he was punished for other stuff more so.