Who ranks higher ATG, Lewis or Wladamir

[IronDanHamza]

on him getting destroyed when he stepped up against decent fighters, and thenupon waiting till they were shot2**** before facing them.


I wonder if you will choose to translate that to mean he waited for the same fighters to get shot2****??

And who is this referring to?

Wlad hasn't ducked anyone, he's pretty much fought everyone that's mattered, hard punchers to boot.

I see no reason as to why he would avoid the likes of Bowe and Holyfield if they were to have fought in this era as opposed to theirs.

[Suckmedry]

I elaborated the reasoning in my previous post and to add..

You see in Bowe vs Holyfiled how they lean against each other (they are bullying each other in some sense) and then bum-bum, there is a furious exchange from the inside, so it's about who can take more and still give it.
I don't really like that style, never did, but I understand some people do.
Don't be fooled it would be same against Wlad - he fights diametrically different to that.

I see prime Haye, with his speed and power (both superior to that version of Holyfield IMO) much more troubling for wlad.

Byrd was a master of defense and was coming inside and trying to box, but he was utterly outclassed by Wlad. Now I know after Lennox beat Holyfiled (and even much before that) Holyfiled was past it, but Byrd did outbox him.

I really can't see Holyfiled coming inside consistently (for 12 rounds - something I believe he would need to do to win) and not taking more damage than Wlad.

Your basing how Holyfield in his prime fought off of the Bowe fight, which is a bad example. He ******ly tried to brawl and fought up close with a bigger guy which is why he lost.

Holyfield at his best had pretty good footwork, but in an aggressive way where he would get in, get out, sometimes stand and trade but then get out jab and then give you all different angles and vary his attacks. Holyfield when he had his head screwed on could box and fight very effectively, he would give Wlad trouble imo and possibly stop him.

[PEBBLES!]

Holyfield at his best had pretty good footwork, but in an aggressive way where he would get in, get out, sometimes stand and trade but then get out jab and then give you all different angles and vary his attacks. Holyfield when he had his head screwed on could box and fight very effectively, he would give Wlad trouble imo and possibly stop him.

this is the thing. the notion that Holy would have to fight exclusively on the inside to beat Wlad is erroneous to me.

[Simurgh]

Your basing how Holyfield in his prime fought off of the Bowe fight, which is a bad example. He ******ly tried to brawl and fought up close with a bigger guy which is why he lost.

Holyfield at his best had pretty good footwork, but in an aggressive way where he would get in, get out, sometimes stand and trade but then get out jab and then give you all different angles and vary his attacks. Holyfield when he had his head screwed on could box and fight very effectively, he would give Wlad trouble imo and possibly stop him.

It's possible. But my point was that Wlad does all of that (most of that) very well himself (get in-out, lateral movement, excellent jab) + he hits way harder + he's a much bigger fighter.

I would give prime Holyfiled better chance to beat Vitali than Wlad.
On the other hand I would give prime Tyson much better chance to beat Wlad than Vitali.

[LacedUp]

i'm not a passionate Klitschko defender. i like those fellows and have enjoyed watching one or the other at varying points of their careers, but there's too much subjectivity and 'guesswork' (for want of a better way of putting it) that has to come into play when one attempts to evaluate their place in history.

ultimately i just don't care enough about where they stand to make an impassioned argument either way. they're pretty good.

it's the baiting of Haye fans that interests me more.

Well, so what has Haye done in his career? Become undisputed CW champion + WBA HW champion, beating a guy 137 pounds heavier. He then went 12 rounds (which were competitive until round 6, let's be real) with a champion most people on here put in their top 10 of all time. Who coincidentally was also 30 pounds heavier than him. He managed to mark up his face more than his own was - and yet you still call him a fraud?

Now, I can understand that you might not like him as a person, but to discredit his accomplishments in 28 fights (remember where Wlad was at that point? that's right, fighting Tony LaRosa for nothing) is just baffling to me. And you take your dislike for him into consideration when you evaluate him. For that reason alone, I see no point in furthering this discussion.

[DreamFighter]

And who is this referring to?

Brewster destroyed Wlad, Wlad kept away from for years until Brewster was post prime.

Corrie destroyed Wlad, Wlad ran until Corrie died.

I see no reason as to why he would avoid the likes of Bowe and Holyfield if they were to have fought in this era as opposed to theirs.

I rather think that if Wlad runs from 38 year old golfers then Bowe and Holyfield will make Wlad look Usain Bolt look as slow as Butterbean over 100 metres as he tries to flee.

[PEBBLES!]

Well, so what has Haye done in his career? Become undisputed CW champion + WBA HW champion, beating a guy 137 pounds heavier. He then went 12 rounds (which were competitive until round 6, let's be real) with a champion most people on here put in their top 10 of all time. Who coincidentally was also 30 pounds heavier than him. He managed to mark up his face more than his own was - and yet you still call him a fraud?

Now, I can understand that you might not like him as a person, but to discredit his accomplishments in 28 fights (remember where Wlad was at that point? that's right, fighting Tony LaRosa for nothing) is just baffling to me. And you take your dislike for him into consideration when you evaluate him. For that reason alone, I see no point in furthering this discussion.

my estimation of his person doesn't factor into my analysis of his CV, but his shortcomings in the character department may certainly have something to do with his lack of desire to get his hands dirty and really give something to the heavies over these past 5 years. you're awarding Haye entirely too much credit for a nice enough early run as a boozerweight. try to imagine an equivalent run in a division of more illustrious history... is it still so spectacular? is it really 'stellar'? let's be real here. Haye had only just gotten himself going as a championship fighter when he started to play the arsehole, showing disinterest in earning a shot by going against any fellow live contenders from the get-go, even before lifting a negotiating chip from lumbering old Valuev emerged as an option. if that's what he's about, great for him, but i'm damned if i'll acclaim him for it.

[PEBBLES!]

also, stuff like this,

"Become undisputed CW champion + WBA HW champion, beating a guy 137 pounds heavier"

sounds GREAT on paper. scratch the surface, though, and there's a lot of flattery beneath the gold leaf.


and competitive? the 2nd half of the fight looked pretty much like the first. Haye doing a lot of dodging, but being unable to combine it fluidly with offense. it's easier for a guy to make another guy miss from range when that's all he's doing. i'd be impressed with his cutesy head movement if he'd actually been able to successfully coordinate it with some aggression.
whatever, Wlad still scored plentifully enough to register a technical domination of Haye.

[LacedUp]

my estimation of his person doesn't factor into my analysis of his CV, but his shortcomings in the character department may certainly have something to do with his lack of desire to get his hands dirty and really give something to the heavies over these past 5 years. you're awarding Haye entirely too much credit for a nice enough early run as a boozerweight. try to imagine an equivalent run in a division of more illustrious history... is it still so spectacular? is it really 'stellar'? let's be real here. Haye had only just gotten himself going as a championship fighter when he started to play the arsehole, showing disinterest in earning a shot by going against any fellow live contenders from the get-go, even before lifting a negotiating chip from lumbering old Valuev emerged as an option. if that's what he's about, great for him, but i'm damned if i'll acclaim him for it.

I'm not going to say his heavyweight resume is outstanding or anything like that. It's decent. If he fights someone like Povetkin next and take the paper strap he once owned, then it will be good. But if that happens, we will still have posters on here claiming that Povetkin was never any good.

If you came up from the cruisers and almost immediately got offered a shot at one of the champs for good money and no options, wouldn't you do it? I think he was prepared to fight a couple of contenders, but you can hardly put him down for wanting to fight the top (Klitschkos, not Valuev). Things so happened that he got himself a belt early, and suddenly he was a major star generating as much money as K2. Suddenly, he didn't have to bow to their slave contracts and earned himself a 50-50 split with no options. Now, news will have it that he tries the mandatory route now, and if he earns his shot by beating povetkin or any other top contender, would you give him his credit then?

[LacedUp]

also, stuff like this,

"Become undisputed CW champion + WBA HW champion, beating a guy 137 pounds heavier"

sounds GREAT on paper. scratch the surface, though, and there's a lot of flattery beneath the gold leaf.


and competitive? the 2nd half of the fight looked pretty much like the first. Haye doing a lot of dodging, but being unable to combine it fluidly with offense. it's easier for a guy to make another guy miss from range when that's all he's doing. i'd be impressed with his head movement if he's been able to successfully coordinate it with some aggression.
whatever, Wlad still scored plentifully enough to register a technical domination of Haye.

I mean I agree, but up until round 6 it was still pretty close. Wlad hadn't really landed on him and Haye caught him a bit in round 3.

What I still can't fathom is you not giving him any credit for his CW career.