Why Floyd is a better counter puncher than Marquez

[studentofthegam]

Maybe the thread title should be changed to "Why Floyd is a better boxer than Marquez"

Quick twitch

[deejd]

I never said Floyd isn't smart, he's very smart but just because I think JMM is smarter

My ***in head hurts from repeating myself.

Are you sure you don't mean being?

[deejd]

When did I say that?!?!?!?

I never said Floyd isn't smart

The real question is when did I state that you said Mayweather wasn't?

[intoccabile]

Provide examples. Did any of them look like this?


or this?




And against certain styles JMM hits nothing but air. If you're fighting a counter puncher that you can hit after being countered then you're much better off than fighting a counter puncher who is gone after he counters you. That makes the later a better counter puncher because he's not presenting you with an opportunity to inflict damage after counters.

Yes, actually.. minus the knockdowns ofcourse.

You are making unfair comparisons. I could do this too, here.

Floyd gets swarmed by Castillo and gets a gift or close decision in the first fight.
JMM gets swarmed by Diaz and knocks his man out.
So does Toney against Jirov

I mean.. these type of comparisons can be done all day. It comes down to preference in the end of the day. Do you lik ea guy who can wait and has the reflexes to make his man pay every single time he puts something out there.

Or do you like the guy who can throw and still have the reflexes to force misses and counters while engaging as well.

Floyd isn't as good a multitasker, doesn't make him any worse.. just different. I personally think they are equal in countering ability.

[IMDAZED]

You are making the typical mistake of the boxing fan that is confusing natural talent with boxing ability.

The biggest difference between JMM and Mayweather is that Mayweather is a superior athlete. I would say that JMM is a more impressive boxer/counter puncher because he's made a career in skill and skill alone.

I'm not saying JMM doesn't have natural ability but when you compare him to others of his time, he doesn't have anything as far as natural ability that stands out.

He's not particularly fast, quick, strong or has a powerful punch. Instead he's very average all the way around yet has continued to be at the top of the boxing world late into his 30's and seems to have gotten better as time has gone on.

That is EXTREMELY rare in the world of boxing because make no mistake about it, this is a young mans game.

Mayweather on the other hand has INCREDIBLE natural talents. His speed is amazing, reactions, reflexes and even power when he was fighting at the lower weight classes.

Mayweather is also a great boxer/counter puncher but he has the advantage of being able to do things that JMM cannot because of physical ability.

For me, I'm more impressed with JMM personally because he's done much more with much less.

There also might not be or ever has been a more intelligent boxer than JMM.

I respectfully...and completely disagree. I would argue that Mayweather is more intelligent than Marquez, a better boxer, counter-puncher...you name it. Everything he does is textbook.

[treason1]

marquez is obviously a superior counter puncher than floyd !!!! why because he does it against a higher caliber of opponent AND he doesnt just throw 1 punch !!!! in marquez latest loss too manny , he countered manny not with just 1 punch and running like floyd does but he countered manny with 2-4 combos !!!!! when have you seen mayweather counter with 3-4 shots !!!! ill answer that for you NEVER !!!! and as i said before marquez fought a higher caliber of opponent !!!! so while mayweather looks like a genius counter puncher you have to take into account that hes looking great against the likes of viviano sosa , shamba michel ,brussales , and other bums !!!!!! so in essace is floyd a good counter puncher ????YES !!! is marquez better and smarter???? YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[apokalips]

This is the only reason that Pacquiao-Mayweather still has me slightly interested. Marquez gives Pacquiao fits because every time Pacquiao flurries Marquez is willing to go in to the trenches with him to get his counter punches in, whereas Mayweather will more than likely wait for Pacquiao to finish punching before he throws back. With that in mind could Pacquiao conceivably outwork Mayweather? Doubtful but there's still a bit of intrigue there.

So you think Mayweather will step back away from Pacquiao's punches and that Pacquiao would continue to throw a combo at air?

You also think that the judges would score Manny hitting air as being good workrate? Or are you saying that Mayweather would stand there and let Pacquiao keep throwing punches at him like Clottey?

Mayweather has the countering ability and timing to throw at the same time as Pacquiao and stop his flurry in its tracks with a sharp counter and step to the side/back.

As for this debate, I honestly do not see anything that Marquez has over Mayweather apart from combination punching and uppercuts. Floyd is far superious at countering and in terms of intelligence IMO. He adjusts on the fly and rarely do you hear his corner barking orders at him, because he dictates the fight through his intelligence. He makes his opponents overthink things, whereas Marquez gets dragged into other people's fights too easily.

I think its way too convenient to just excuse that as being him wanting to please the crowd...nobody likes to get hit unless you're a nut like Mayorga. I could never see Mayweather allowing himself to get dropped 3 times in one round. Marquez lacks discipline that is why he gets dragged into brawls with guys like Katsidis and Diaz and gets dropped. I always said that was what he needed to correct vs Pacquiao and I was proud to see him fight with discipline vs Manny and grab the win...too bad the judges didn't give him what he deserved!

[intoccabile]

So you think Mayweather will step back away from Pacquiao's punches and that Pacquiao would continue to throw a combo at air?

You also think that the judges would score Manny hitting air as being good workrate? Or are you saying that Mayweather would stand there and let Pacquiao keep throwing punches at him like Clottey?

Mayweather has the countering ability and timing to throw at the same time as Pacquiao and stop his flurry in its tracks with a sharp counter and step to the side/back.

As for this debate, I honestly do not see anything that Marquez has over Mayweather apart from combination punching and uppercuts. Floyd is far superious at countering and in terms of intelligence IMO. He adjusts on the fly and rarely do you hear his corner barking orders at him, because he dictates the fight through his intelligence. He makes his opponents overthink things, whereas Marquez gets dragged into other people's fights too easily.

I think its way too convenient to just excuse that as being him wanting to please the crowd...nobody likes to get hit unless you're a nut like Mayorga. I could never see Mayweather allowing himself to get dropped 3 times in one round. Marquez lacks discipline that is why he gets dragged into brawls with guys like Katsidis and Diaz and gets dropped. I always said that was what he needed to correct vs Pacquiao and I was proud to see him fight with discipline vs Manny and grab the win...too bad the judges didn't give him what he deserved!

Actually, pacman probably would. Usually when pac misses entirely, he is so off balance that it's hard to land a counter because he's usually off his feet (the ****er jumps while punching, so sloppy), and ends up a lot further from his man than he should be. However when he misses close, there's usually 2 or 3 extra punches that follow. One thing about floyd, he doesn't usually handle flurries with counters, but instead defends them and waits for those chances where he won't be touched at all.

Chillpill is 100% right for thinking that mayweather could be outworked there, since pac may be easy to counter, but floyd will have to be willing to get hit for once to do so.

I've seen stranger things with judging. Alexander/Kotelnik comes to mind. Devon hit nothing but air and Gloves. Mainly air. Remember this?

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/view.php?pg=alexander-kotelnik-compubox

He threw 600 jabs and only landed 60 LOL! judges love work rate today, they dont even care if the **** lands. It's sad.

[!! Shawn]

In what ways did he use that "huge size avantage" that he had?

You really have to ask that? Marquez was coming up short all night. It was obviously because of his deficit in reach.

[intoccabile]

You really have to ask that? Marquez was coming up short all night. It was obviously because of his deficit in reach.

A deficit that would be there regardless of weight.