Marquez "I Cant Fight Without a Hyperbaric Chamber."Grandpas-"Technology Dont Matter"

[F l i c k e r]

Look at their footwork. They're flat footed, dragging their feet. It's the equivalent of a Marathon with guys walking the entire way. They're not nearly expending the kind of energy that today's fighters expend, which they prepare for in 7 week training camps.

Are these guys tougher? Probably, I'll give them that. They get in there and they slug.

The modern day fighter wouldn't need 45 rounds to KO one of these guys. As a matter of fact, send either one of those two into the future, and just have them fight a regular 12 round fight. I'll guarantee either one of em' would be exhausted after 10 rounds, and the kind of pace a modern day boxer would put them through. If they dragged their feet like that, they would get knocked out.

You are 100% correct man.

A lot of people here on Bscene don't think that way though. They don't understand athletics. They just know that if you win you must be good and if you beat other guys who win a lot, you must be really good. So they think guys from Dempsey's day could beat anyone around now-a-days.

They don't take into consideration the vast difference in athletic ability of the 21st century compared to guys in that video.

They won't accept this fact either. Mainly because they don't know shit about sports performance. They'll google search and regurgitate what they read to make it seem like they know but they don't. It's something you have to experience to truly know. Cause if you experience it, you'll respect the forefathers but know the vast difference of now-a-days.

Great post though man.

[cupocity303]

You're kidding yourself if you think today's fighters have superior conditioning than old school fighters. I mean I wasn't around in those times to see those fights live. But collecting the facts and putting the pieces together...15 round fights, most fighters had an average of over 100 fights in their career, less padded gloves, 8 weight classes, one belt per weight class, same-day weigh-ins, little to no catchweights, let's stop it right there and compare it to now..12 rounds, some fighters look like they're dying in the closing rounds, 30-60 pro fights is the average span of a fighter, a lot of them become shot after about 30 pro fights, 17 weight classes, 4 major belts per weight class, plus more garbage meaningless belts like Interim, Silver, Super, Regular, AKA everybody can be a champion.

You're tinkering around the edges with your analogy.

All that shows is that in that era, Boxing was less safe and the Boxing was still evolving into a Sport.

That's like saying Football players during the Era that Football was invented, playing without all of today's safety gear, less rules, less organization, and guys kicking the **** out each other, are much tougher, stronger because of the more brutal conditions/environment they were playing in. Compared to today's NFL pu$$ies who are being spoiled with million dollar programs to breed them into the large Athletes that they are.

You are a product of your environment.

[TheGreatA]

All I know is that Marquez's legs look like twigs. I think he would have benefited from a more solid base. Most old timers worked on their legs daily. The upper body was not as important, in fact being muscle-bound was looked down upon (for legitimate reasons I'd say). I have a feeling that Marquez's "modern" conditioning will backfire badly in his upcoming fight.

I think taking one look at a boxer like Harold Johnson will make you think twice whether today's boxers are truly more athletic, well-conditioned or skilled.

The man fought 60 years ago, yet I think it's very hard to make a case that any of today's light heavyweights (one of which is a 46 year old man) looks better than him on film.

[TheGreatA]

Look at their footwork. They're flat footed, dragging their feet. It's the equivalent of a Marathon with guys walking the entire way. They're not nearly expending the kind of energy that today's fighters expend, which they prepare for in 7 week training camps.

Are these guys tougher? Probably, I'll give them that. They get in there and they slug.

The modern day fighter wouldn't need 45 rounds to KO one of these guys. As a matter of fact, send either one of those two into the future, and just have them fight a regular 12 round fight. I'll guarantee either one of em' would be exhausted after 10 rounds, and the kind of pace a modern day boxer would put them through. If they dragged their feet like that, they would get knocked out.

Wolgast moved quite a bit and does not utilizing constant footwork mean that you're not in great condition? Is Margarito not in great condition? Both of these men were known as sluggers in their day, although Wolgast could also box fairly well, though not as well as Joe Gans, Willie Ritchie, Packey McFarland or Benny Leonard who were seen as the skillful boxers in those times. Gans utilized footwork against Nelson for 42 rounds in a bout that is on film.

Nelson was criticized in his day for having no skill, comparable to a Ricardo Mayorga nowadays. Even then he looks fairly good throwing straight punches and working constantly. He was throwing 80 punches a round in a 45 round fight. That is incredible.

Both of these fighters did nothing but train their whole life, you didn't have many distractions back in those days. You did not throw after-fight parties, you did not go up in weight in between the fights, you did not drain yourself to make weight, you fought every month. Nelson in particular fought 6 20 round fights in the span of 6 months.

It's true about the improved safety in comparison to the early 1900's, Nelson and Wolgast paid a very high price in this fight. Safety hasn't much improved from the mid 1900s though because the dangers back then have been replaced by the dangers of weight-draining especially in the lower weight divisions where ring injuries and deaths still regularly take place.

[cupocity303]

Wolgast moved quite a bit and does not utilizing constant footwork mean that you're not in great condition? Is Margarito not in great condition?

Margarito is in great condition, and I guarantee neither one of those guys went through this, cardio wise, nor could they.

[SIZE="3"] You misunderstood. I'm going way further with my analogy then them fighting like Margarito. They don't even come close to doing what Margarito does, or with the kind of energy that Margarito shows in the ring.

As far as them training. Their regimens weren't Scientific. It was all about rugged, Army-esque training to see how tough you were, not taking into consideration what is going on inside of your body. Nothing like today's Nutritionist trainers who take you through a complete physical and know what's going on with your body before you start running miles and miles, like you're some type of Rocky Balboa eating Raw eggs in the morning.

Guys like Victor Conte, who taught his Clients that training 3 days and taking one day off is more beneficial to them (recovery time for muscles) then just emptily training like a Work Horse, 7 days a week. That interval training combined with some jogging is more beneficial, then jogging 15 miles every day, like past fighters used to do, wearing out their joints.

[cupocity303]

Both of these fighters did nothing but train their whole life, you didn't have many distractions back in those days. You did not throw after-fight parties, you did not go up in weight in between the fights, you did not drain yourself to make weight, you fought every month. Nelson in particular fought 6 20 round fights in the span of 6 months.

I don't doubt that they trained their ass off. They did the best they could under those circumstances. They were a product of their environment.

But using 45 rounds or 15 round fights as proof that they're on the same level or better than today's, top conditioned fighters who Box 10 or 12, is nonsense.

[TheGreatA]

Margarito is in great condition, and I guarantee neither one of those guys went through this, cardio wise, nor could they.

Neither does one need to go through that in order to be a well-conditioned boxer. Floyd Mayweather? A lot of the stuff Margarito does there is pretty much old time training techniques anyhow. What's not is the way he dehydrates himself with various (arguably illegal) methods to make an extremely low weight that gives him an advantage over smaller opponents.

You misunderstood. I'm going way further with my analogy then them fighting like Margarito. They don't even come close to doing what Margarito does, or with the kind of energy that Margarito shows in the ring.

What does Margarito do differently? Throw 10-20 more punches a round in a 10-12 round fight compared to 80 punches a round in a 45 round fight? Because he sure doesn't use footwork, head movement or upperbody movement. Even a boxer like Gaspar Ortega makes him look amateurish, and Ortega used to be a trial horse in his day despite being of the same stature, possessing an arguably better chin and having as great of a workrate.

An overweight Rocky Rivero used to throw 100+ punch barrages a round back in the day, it's nothing new. Not to mention Rocky Marciano.

Or Carlos Ortiz here:



Compare the way of throwing punches to Angulo.



Wide misses like 0:53 and 1:37 will wear anybody out.

Guys like Victor Conte, who taught his Clients that training 3 days and taking one day off is more beneficial to them (recovery time for muscles) then just emptily training like a Work Horse, 7 days a week. That interval training combined with some jogging is more beneficial, then jogging 15 miles every day, like past fighters used to do, wearing out their joints.

I don't doubt that it's more beneficial in a 10 or 12 round fight, but a 45 round fight is like running a marathon. You need the ability to conserve your energy and to pace yourself and to also have the mentality to hang in there when hours have passed while you're still going at it. Imagine a Jermain Taylor going 45 rounds and the man used to be a middleweight champion in these days.

But using 45 rounds or 15 round fights as proof that they're on the same level or better than today's, top conditioned fighters who Box 10 or 12, is nonsense.

It's not nonsense. Today you see top fighters running out of gas in 12 round fights. You rarely saw it happen to anyone even in 15 round fights. I believe that has to do with a lack of skill and ability to conserve oneself along with dehydration and the fact that many boxers today don't keep in shape in between the fights.

It's not a lack of conditioning, because a lot of well-conditioned boxers run out of steam. In a boxing ring, being forced to fight at an uncomfortable pace can eat away the stamina of almost everybody. We just saw Alfredo Angulo, a man who used to go 10 rounds with relative ease, punch himself out in 1 round. On the other hand, James Toney can go 12 as shot and out of shape as he is.

Anybody can try it out by throwing explosive, wide punches without a correct breathing rhythm in comparison to relaxed and compact punches to see the difference.

[JAB5239]

Ridiculous non-argument. If Matthew Greer walks out of the pub and into a boxing ring with a beer gut to fight physical specimen Denis Boytsov, and takes advantage of none of available scientific methods of training and nutrition, how does that prove your case?

The problem, especially in America, is laziness and lack of dedication and of fighters not taking advantage of the modern techniques.

Monte Barrett was supposed to get wiped out by David Tua, but changed and modernized his training and nutrition methods to upset Tua twice. At 40 years old, he turned back the clock and was better than ever. Ask him about sports evolution.

You're trying to establish a case using an inactive Tua who was fighting nearly 25lbs over his best fighting weight?

[TheGreatA]

You're trying to establish a case using an inactive Tua who was fighting nearly 25lbs over his best fighting weight?

The same Barrett that was knocked stiff by the 270 lb barrel that is Odlanier Solis. And ran out of steam and got nearly KO'd by a shot, overweight Tua.

Better examples please.

[JAB5239]

I'll challenge it, even though I originally wanted to leave it with the Green K message I sent you.

Look at that guys boxing stance:

It's ancient. It's the equivalent of the early-days of Basketball. When guys were just starting to develop of a Jump Shot or a Free throw. And how the new generation took it to the next level, and created the fade away, new athletic ways to dribble the ball (I.E. Iverson-esque).

That's the way I see the new generation of Boxers 1990-2011. It's not just the Athleticism, Training and all the Hyperbaric Chambers to replenish your lungs, the Protein shakes, better knowledge of the Human body applied to Training which some of these Strength & Conditioning are good at etc,.

There was no Science into what they did in the earlier days of Boxing. Top fighters going at it every few weeks. We don't know how modern day fighters would have fared in that type of environment, having to fight every few weeks, but I'm pretty sure the Legends of the past would've loved fighting in the current era. Not because the competition would've been any easier, but because they would get to fight less for more Money, WIN OR LOSE, and their primes would've lasted a lot longer also. The Promoters wouldn't have ****** the life out of you by age 35, with 80, 90, 100 fights, and you retiring broke.

I wouldn't read to much into a photo of a fighter posing my friend. But there was absolutely a science to the way they fought. Here is an article and a video that can explain it much better than myself. And remember, this way of fighting goes all the way back to the likes of Joe Gans.

http://coxscorner.tripod.com/boxingskill.html

http://********/81non05aKX4