Comments Thread For: The Top 25 Heavyweights of All-Time – Top Ten

[TheGreatA]

I buy it. Ali's co-trainer said it, too.

Bundini Brown? You think he was Ali's co-trainer and a reliable source to use? He was a member of the entourage. Would you believe it if some member of Wladimir Klitschko's entourage came out and said they had poisoned all his opponents?

Yeah, and the judges had Ali winning vs Norton, too. It has been a long theory of mine that in those days they valued "chin" more than "fists". Until this day this is how US fans see it, I think. That's why they cry out "robbery" as soon as the fight takes place outside of the US. Because Europeans don't fall for this "fists < chin" nonsense. However, don't reply since my statements are a bit offtopic here.

I also had Ali winning over Norton the second time. Foreman's best punch against Ali was a left cheek to the right hand. He was getting hit at will whenever Ali decided to throw while he could only score on Ali's guard.

Thank you for mentioning

• Bonavena (whom Ali didn't manage to KO within 12 rounds. Don't even compare such KO to nowadays KOs.)
• bum-beater Liston (terribly bum'ed up record)
• featherfist Folley
• featherfisted half-blind dwarf Frazier (yes, he was blind on one eye)
• cruiser Quarry (198)
• cruiser Ellis (189)
• cruiser Patterson (188 lbs)

Unbelievable. CLAYtons really think that THESE FIGHTS ARE MORE MEANINGFUL THAN ALL OF KLITSCHKO'S KOS!

Wladimir Klitschko's best KO's:

Cruisers Eddie Chambers & past prime Chris Byrd
Half-blind Lamon Brewster & Ruslan Chagaev
Washed up Rahman & Mercer

If you think Liston's record was supposedly "bum'd" up, I advise you to take a look at the records of Klitschko opponents. You won't see too many, if any top 10 ranked opponents.

It underlines exactly my point: Such fights only impress CLAYtons who loooove to retreat into some delusional past. Wlad would walk through all these opponents you listed.

Just like he walked through out of shape, near 40 year old professional golfer Corrie Sanders?


2:30

Wladimir had trouble getting past a motivated Peter so I wouldn't be too certain of him walking through Ali's opposition.

And can you even imagine the outcry if Wlad would fight

• someone who is smaller than Chris Byrd
• and is a featherfist like Byrd
• and has shorter arms than Byrd
• and is less experienced than Byrd
• and is lighter than Byrd
• and is blind on one eye
• and who knocks down Wlad

(I am talking about Joe Frazier here)?

Frazier was naturally bigger than Byrd (Byrd at 20 years of age weighed 140 lbs, Frazier came down from over 250 lbs), he was a powerful heavyweight with a powerful left hook (obvious to anyone who has watched film of him), used his short height and reach to his advantage by fighting on the inside (better strategy against a taller opponent than Byrd's), was experienced against top 10 ranked opponents at an early stage in his career (his record wasn't padded with nobodies), was not actually blind (although he had trouble with one eye) and was a better fighter than the likes of DaVarryl Williamson, Ross Puritty, Lamon Brewster, Sam Peter and Steve Pannel who all knocked down Wladimir.

Frazier would have been Wladimir's best opponent by far and you know it.

This would be the final proof of how the division sucks. Yet in the eyes of CLAYtons it's the proof of how great Ali was.

The reason people think the division sucks is because there's very little talent outside of the Klitschko brothers. Many of the fights are also dull.

That you list these guys as the heavyweight cream of the 70ies just shows you how crappy the "golden" age was.

When you look at the film of these fighters and compare it to the films of today's fighters, it shows how great the era was.

Yes, this is true. Your best argument.

But let me repeat a previous post of mine: Sanders was Wlad's 43rd heavyweight fight. Ali doesn't even have so many heavyweight fights (Lennox doesn't have so many, too). If you count only real heavyweight fights (both fighters 200+ lbs) then Ali has a record of 28-4. You shouldn't bring up the Sanders fight as a prove for anything regarding Ali.

No cruiserweight division existed in the 1960's.

There is no rule that states that a less than 200 lb fighter can't compete in the heavyweight division. See Roy Jones, a recent heavyweight titlist.

Many of those "cruiserweight-sized" men were proven against 200+ lb fighters and were more skilled than today's heavyweights. Byrd and Chambers, two cruiserweights, being Wladimir's best opponents is proof of this. Roy Jones and James Toney, two former middleweights, were competitive in today's division.

It is fairly obvious that you spend more time studying boxrec.com than you do watching the actual fights. Your interest doesn't seem to be boxing, but mathematics.

why is that the klit-haters always bring up past fighters and compare them to wlad, try to diminish wlad's skills

and about dominating, dont deny it your mad that there beating everybody.. its the truth, dont take it personal

The only ones who have brought up Ali on this thread are the Klitschko fans. All I'm doing is responding to them.

[TheGreatA]

I wouldn't even dismiss them but it's laughable that their fans come here and claim that every heavyweight who ever lived outside of the Klitschko brothers only fought "sub-cruiser" nobodies when Wladimir's two best victories are over men who were natural "cruiserweights".

[CarlosG815]

That's a very bad top 25 list.

[tuxtucis]

dear ignorant klit-hater

wlad has been dominating all the top heavyweights for years, and has more then made up for his losses

i could go on but your probably just another racist moron, mad that a white guy is dominating the heavyweight division and knocking your "brothers" out 1 by 1,

That's the point, all peoples who dismiss W.Klitschko's greatness are black suprematists!
Specially Great A (Finnish) and me (Italian) :-)

[Akyra]

another excellent article by cliff! thanks for sharing poppa!

[boxingking500]

its true there are no black people on these threads that are fan of the klitschkos

[knn]

Bundini Brown? You think he was Ali's co-trainer and a reliable source to use?

Ali's co-trainer AND Foreman.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5611639#post5611639

Cruisers Eddie Chambers & past prime Chris Byrd
Half-blind Lamon Brewster & Ruslan Chagaev

This is what you have left? Inventing lies to prove your point? Neither was Brewster blind nor was Byrd past-prime. Stop deluding yourself even more.

If you think Liston's record was supposedly "bum'd" up, I advise you to take a look at the records of Klitschko opponents. You won't see too many, if any top 10 ranked opponents.

You use Liston once again to prove Ali's greatness. Ridiculous.

Just like he walked through out of shape, near 40 year old professional golfer Corrie Sanders?

Another cheap shot. What has being a golfer to do with anything? Why don't you call Wlad a "kite-surfer" to make another cheap point. Moreover Corrie Sanders was not out of shape.

And as I have said before: Ali had only 32 real heavyweight fights. Sanders was Wlad's 43rd. Bring Sanders up again after Ali has had 43 real heavyweight fights.

Wladimir had trouble getting past a motivated Peter so I wouldn't be too certain of him walking through Ali's opposition.

Had trouble? He basically won every round. Another cheap shot. Moreover Peter would have ruled the 70ies including Ali.

Frazier was naturally bigger than Byrd (Byrd at 20 years of age weighed 140 lbs

And at 1 years of age he weighted 5 lbs. What the heck?

Frazier came down from over 250 lbs), he was a powerful heavyweight with a powerful left hook (obvious to anyone who has watched film of him)

Yawn. And was put into place by Foreman (6'3.5'') with a few shots.

was not actually blind (although he had trouble with one eye)

He not only was blind on one eye: After Ali closed his other eye he was practically fully blind in the last rounds of the fight.

and was a better fighter than the likes of DaVarryl Williamson, Ross Puritty, Lamon Brewster, Sam Peter and Steve Pannel

Pure speculation, completely unsubstantiated by Frazier's record. Stop deluding yourself once more.

Frazier would have been Wladimir's best opponent by far and you know it.

In his entire career Wlad has not faced such a dwarf like Frazier. And because of his eye condition Frazier wouldn't be allowed to fight nowadays.

The reason people think the division sucks is because there's very little talent outside of the Klitschko brothers.

Typical lame excuse. Eddie Chambers, Chris Byrd, Brock, Sam Peter and Thompson etc could have ruled the seventies. CLAYtons are just too blind to accept a simple fact: Heavyweights get better BECAUSE athletes IN EVERY SPORT get better.

When you look at the film of these fighters and compare it to the films of today's fighters, it shows how great the era was.

I WATCHED these fights. They are hardly bearable. Except for a few moments especially Ali is a disgrace. So SLOW, so PLODDING, such a FEATHERFIST. Ali is completely flat-footed (except in his earlier fights or when he occasionally does the "merry-go-round escape maneuver" = *cough* floating). No defence whatsoever, choking his opponents with his arm, insulting them. Dis-gus-ting.

Just watch Ali vs Chuvalo: How can you watch that crap? (And I actually think that Ali vs Chuvalo was Ali's best performance). Ali vs fatty Mathis. What a boredom. Ali vs Norton: How can Ali fight THAT bad?

Tell me GreatA, which of the following HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE FIGHTS do you like more:

• Heavyweight world title 1966: Ali fights a Cleveland Williams who has been shot prior to the fight, suffered from kidney damage and nerve damage, could not train and had 10 feet of his intestines removed
• Heavyweight title 1972: Ali fights a 180lbs cruiser (Bob Foster)
• Heavyweight world title 1975: A guy with Parkinson (Ali) fights a half-blind (Frazier, blind in his left eye)
• Heavyweight world title 1976: A guy with Parkinson (Ali) fights a featherfist bum (Jimmy Young, career record 34-19, KOratio 19%)
• Heavyweight world title 1978: A guy with Parkinson (Ali) vs a 6-0 cruiser bum (Spinks, 197lbs, career record 26-17)

Tell me GreatA, which fight was better: Where the guy with Parkinson loses the heavyweight title to a 6-0 bum? Or the 7-0 bum loses the title to a guy with Parkinson? Who do you personally think represents the 70ies heavyweight division better: A guy with Parkinson or a 6-0 CRUISER?

Who would want to watch such a crap nowadays? How can you consider the 70ies division better than nowadays division? That a guy with Parkinson could actually rule the division shows you what a crap the division was. I guess they call it GOLDEN age because it was such a p*ss.

Read my post at

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5564630#post5564630

and wake up.

No cruiserweight division existed in the 1960's.

Exactly. That's why they called it "heavyweight" then. But you know what? 190lbs is 190lbs. Now and then. And Louis (198) vs Schmeling (193) was nothing but a cruiserfight. Who cares how the called it then. Get over it.

There is no rule that states that a less than 200 lb fighter can't compete in the heavyweight division. See Roy Jones, a recent heavyweight titlist.

When RJJ moved up the limit was not 200 as it is now. RJJ has never had any what-we-call-now heavyweight fight.

Many of those "cruiserweight-sized" men were proven against 200+ lb fighters and were more skilled than today's heavyweights.

Spare us your favorite fantasies.

Byrd and Chambers, two cruiserweights

They were not cruiserweights when they fought Wlad. Again you invent stuff to make a point. It's a big difference whether Wlad fights Byrd (213) or Ali fights Bob Foster (180). One is a heavyweight fight, the other is not.

Roy Jones and James Toney, two former middleweights, were competitive in today's division.

What a nonsense. RJJ never fought at 200+. Toney is 6-2 now. Toney is a great boxer but a heavyweight bum. Hardly competitive. Don't invent stuff.

It is fairly obvious that you spend more time studying boxrec.com than you do watching the actual fights. Your interest doesn't seem to be boxing, but mathematics.

No, my interest is FACTs. And as opposed to so many "Ali-delusionists" I ACTUALLY WATCHED his fights. The difference is that I didn't watch them ON MY KNEES.

[TheGreatA]

Ali's co-trainer AND Foreman.

http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/sh...39#post5611639

More reliable sources. Foreman said it so it must be true. Foreman recently admitted that he has stopped making excuses and that he lost fairly. He got over it, maybe you should too.

This is what you have left? Inventing lies to prove your point? Neither was Brewster blind nor was Byrd past-prime. Stop deluding yourself even more.

Chagaev and Brewster had both suffered detached retinas. Calvin Brock is now legally half-blind. Byrd was 36 years old at the time Wladimir knocked him out. When he was younger he survived the distance.

Considering all the exaggerations you've made about Ali's opponents, what I'm saying is entirely fair.

You use Liston once again to prove Ali's greatness. Ridiculous.

Yes it's fair to use Liston, a greater fighter than anyone the Klitschko brothers ever beat, as proof of Ali's greatness.

Another cheap shot. What has being a golfer to do with anything? Why don't you call Wlad a "kite-surfer" to make another cheap point. Moreover Corrie Sanders was not out of shape.

Everyone knows that Sanders was only a part-time fighter at the time and focused on playing golf. They even made it a point in pre-fight hype, that Sanders was a successful golf player. Wladimir as far as I know is not dedicated to surfing, it's only a hobby if anything.

He was hardly in amazing shape against Wladimir, watch if you dare:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqEANlBbhsA

And as I have said before: Ali had only 32 real heavyweight fights. Sanders was Wlad's 43rd. Bring Sanders up again after Ali has had 43 real heavyweight fights.

Ali had 61 heavyweight fights regardless of you trying to rewrite the rules and history of boxing.

Had trouble? He basically won every round. Another cheap shot. Moreover Peter would have ruled the 70ies including Ali.

Scorecards:

Lynne Carter 114-111 | judge: George Hill 114-111 | judge: Steve Weisfeld 114-111 ~

Klitschko was knocked down.

He had trouble with Peter. The video is the proof.

Peter would have ruled over no one in the 70's. Anyone who has followed boxing can see that he has no skills, no speed, only strength and crude power but the average 250 lb man who hits the gym has that. Peter lacks the skill to compete with great boxers and his best wins are over old men like Maskaev and Toney.

And at 1 years of age he weighted 5 lbs. What the heck?

While Byrd put on 60 pounds to compete as a heavyweight, Frazier cut down 60 pounds. Former super middleweight Bigfoot Martin was heavier than Wladimir Klitschko during their fight, does this mean he was the naturally bigger man? Not to anyone who knows a thing or two about cutting and gaining weight. Frazier was a natural heavyweight, Byrd as he claimed himself ate his way to the heavyweight division.

Yawn. And was put into place by Foreman (6'3.5'') with a few shots.

Foreman was one of the hardest punchers to ever live. Wladimir was put in his place by Sanders (nowhere near as good as Foreman) with a few shots, does this mean he can't punch?

He not only was blind on one eye: After Ali closed his other eye he was practically fully blind in the last rounds of the fight.

You're criticizing Ali for punching Frazier's head so many times until his eyes were so swollen up that he couldn't see?

Pure speculation, completely unsubstantiated by Frazier's record. Stop deluding yourself once more.

Don't make me laugh. You know he was far better, everyone knows he was. The only delusional one here is you and you know it. Pannell and Puritty are journeymen, Williamson was a china-chinned fringe contender, Brewster couldn't beat Etienne, Peter is a crude clubber. Eddie Chambers admitted he was no "Smokin' Joe". Frazier is a top 10 all-time great heavyweight, the rest struggled to make top 10 in their own time. All knocked down Wladimir.

In his entire career Wlad has not faced such a dwarf like Frazier. And because of his eye condition Frazier wouldn't be allowed to fight nowadays.

Brewster and Chagaev are allowed to fight. Wladimir has fought men smaller than Frazier and in his last fight took on a man of similar stature than Frazier.

Typical lame excuse. Eddie Chambers, Chris Byrd, Brock, Sam Peter and Thompson etc could have ruled the seventies. CLAYtons are just too blind to accept a simple fact: Heavyweights get better BECAUSE athletes IN EVERY SPORT get better.

What a high standard of athletes here:





Compared to these slobs:

I WATCHED these fights. They are hardly bearable. Except for a few moments especially Ali is a disgrace. So SLOW, so PLODDING, such a FEATHERFIST. Ali is completely flat-footed (except in his earlier fights or when he occasionally does the "merry-go-round escape maneuver" = *cough* floating). No defence whatsoever, choking his opponents with his arm, insulting them. Dis-gus-ting.

This rant is proof that you haven't. Ali was the fastest heavyweight to ever live, with solid power in both fists, fleet-footed, rarely if ever hit in his prime. Maybe you've watched Ali fight Berbick, I don't know.

Just watch Ali vs Chuvalo: How can you watch that crap? (And I actually think that Ali vs Chuvalo was Ali's best performance). Ali vs fatty Mathis. What a boredom. Ali vs Norton: How can Ali fight THAT bad?

Ali looked great against Chuvalo. He barely trained for the Mathis fight, which was only a tune-up and Norton was a bad match-up for him. Wladimir doesn't exactly look like gold in every fight of his either, see Wladimir-Ibragimov.

Tell me GreatA, which of the following HEAVYWEIGHT TITLE FIGHTS do you like more:

• Heavyweight world title 1966: Ali fights a Cleveland Williams who has been shot prior to the fight, suffered from kidney damage and nerve damage, could not train and had 10 feet of his intestines removed
• Heavyweight title 1972: Ali fights a 180lbs cruiser (Bob Foster)
• Heavyweight world title 1975: A guy with Parkinson (Ali) fights a half-blind (Frazier, blind in his left eye)
• Heavyweight world title 1976: A guy with Parkinson (Ali) fights a featherfist bum (Jimmy Young, career record 34-19, KOratio 19%)
• Heavyweight world title 1978: A guy with Parkinson (Ali) vs a 6-0 cruiser bum (Spinks, 197lbs, career record 26-17)

Tell me GreatA, which fight was better: Where the guy with Parkinson loses the heavyweight title to a 6-0 bum? Or the 7-0 bum loses the title to a guy with Parkinson? Who do you personally think represents the 70ies heavyweight division better: A guy with Parkinson or a 6-0 CRUISER?

Who would want to watch such a crap nowadays? How can you consider the 70ies division better than nowadays division? That a guy with Parkinson could actually rule the division shows you what a crap the division was. I guess they call it GOLDEN age because it was such a p*ss.

The Thrilla in Manila was one of the greatest fights of all time, sure I'd watch it anytime.

Young was not a "feather-fist bum", he was top 10 ranked in the division and a brilliant boxer to watch on film. Of course you don't watch film so you wouldn't know this. Wladimir lost to a guy who finished his career with a record of 30 wins, 22 losses, so what?

The fight against Bob Foster, the light heavyweight champion of the world, was not a title fight. Recently Chad Dawson's manager has claimed that they will try to fight at heavyweight in the future. If Klitschko ends up fighting Dawson for the heavyweight title, I'm sure you'd be all for it. After all the Klitschko brothers would have loved to have fought Roy Jones, a former junior middleweight, when Jones was campaigning as a heavyweight.

Ali didn't have Parkinson's at the time he fought Spinks. The 6-0 bum happened to be an Olympic gold medalist.

Exactly. That's why they called it "heavyweight" then. But you know what? 190lbs is 190lbs. Now and then. And Louis (198) vs Schmeling (193) was nothing but a cruiserfight. Who cares how the called it then. Get over it.

Louis beat several 6'5+, 250+ lb men. Schmeling beat several men over 200 pounds. If today a 190 lb man beat all the leading heavyweights, would you prevent him from fighting for the heavyweight title due to size? That's senseless.

When RJJ moved up the limit was not 200 as it is now. RJJ has never had any what-we-call-now heavyweight fight.

He has held a version of the heavyweight title, simple as that. He beat a 230 lb man to win it. If in the future the cruiserweight division limit is 215 lbs, will you no longer give Wladimir Klitschko credit for winning the heavyweight title twice because he won it from Chris Byrd? This is utterly ridiculous and flawed logic which you only use to try to boost Klitschko's achievements because in truth they haven't achieved all that much.

[TheGreatA]

Spare us your favorite fantasies.

Ask any boxing expert who was a better fighter between Sonny Liston, George Foreman, Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and Chris Byrd, Eddie Chambers, Ruslan Chagaev and Sultan Ibragimov. The answer would be the former, men who are all ranked among the all-time great heavyweights.

They were not cruiserweights when they fought Wlad. Again you invent stuff to make a point. It's a big difference whether Wlad fights Byrd (213) or Ali fights Bob Foster (180). One is a heavyweight fight, the other is not.

Byrd claimed he was under 200 lbs at the time he fought Wladimir. You believe George Foreman for saying he was drugged even though there is no official proof so who are you to call Byrd a liar? Byrd is a guy who recently dropped down to 175 lbs and also fought at cruiser. Ask any expert, the man is a natural 190-200 lber.

What a nonsense. RJJ never fought at 200+. Toney is 6-2 now. Toney is a great boxer but a heavyweight bum. Hardly competitive. Don't invent stuff.

He's one of Peter's best wins. If Toney's a bum then Peter can't be much of a fighter either. Peter also struggled with Toney greatly during their first fight. Toney was ranked among the top 10 heavyweights and for a brief time held the heavyweight title, until busted for steroids.

No, my interest is FACTs. And as opposed to so many "Ali-delusionists" I ACTUALLY WATCHED his fights. The difference is that I didn't watch them ON MY KNEES.

You haven't watched his fights. You also do not seem to know anything about boxing which is why you don't discuss boxing, you discuss statistics that can be interpreted whatever way you like.

[STEELHEAD]

where's the klitschko's? auh ha ha ha ha...cornyvore is going to rant and rave!
auh ha ha ha ha !!!