Comments Thread For: The Top 25 Heavyweights of All-Time – Top Ten

[TheGreatA]

And look at those photos. All those guys with the possible exception of Ibragimov could be weighing substantially less.

I'd say Ibragimov could too. He fought at 200 lbs as an amateur until 27 years of age.

[Suckmedry]

I'd say Ibragimov could too. He fought at 200 lbs as an amateur until 27 years of age.

Yeah. But he was certainly in better shape than the others

[TheGreatA]

Yeah. But he was certainly in better shape than the others

Byrd used to be in good shape but you could see that he could have easily been a cruiserweight, even a light heavyweight. In fact he started fighting as a super middleweight. I did not approve of him crashing down to 175 at nearly 40 years of age though, it took everything out of him.

Chambers probably would be better off at cruiserweight, but since he can beat top ranked heavyweights (250+ lb Peter, Dimitrenko) and get paid more for it, there's no real reason for him to go down in weight. Despite his lack of size, his skills are good enough to beat the slow, plodding heavyweights like Peter that knn believes would have cleaned out the division in the 1970's. And Chambers himself admitted that he doesn't match up to the likes of Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier.

Chagaev too became a slow, plodding fighter, far from his amateur form at 200-210 lbs when he was more agile.

[tuxtucis]

I m not a Klitschko hater! Anyway i faked not results: Frazier was stopped second time by Foreman after his 32 birthday and same Schmeling by Joe Louis... I use 25-32 cause average that's the prime of a boxer... I know that not valid for all: Tyson, Baer and Patterson, exemple, peaked before 25, Walcott after 30...
What i mean is that W.Klitschko was stopped twice when he was 26 and 28, not a novice...
I exclude in fact the stoppage by Puritty when he was at start of career...
So, cause u interest so much win against gianats, how do u should rank little Jack Dempsey, whose best fights were against giants (Firpo, Fulton, Willard)?

[knn]

More reliable sources. Foreman said it so it must be true. Foreman recently admitted that he has stopped making excuses and that he lost fairly.

Nonsense, how can he claim in his newest book that he was poisoned yet lost fairly? No, he said he would have lost without poisoning, too. Big difference. And merely a speculation on Foreman's part.

He got over it

Whether he got over it is irrelevant. Whether Ali won against a poisoned opponent is NOT irrelevant.

Chagaev and Brewster had both suffered detached retinas.

SO WHAT? They weren't detached during the fight with Klitschko. They had 100% vision. Stop twisting facts. Frazier was blind on 1 eye.

Calvin Brock is now legally half-blind.

Yes, after a messed up eye operation followed by an eye stroke. That you even bring up these fighters to make the win against Frazier look more normal is ridiculous.

Frazier was HANDICAPPED = blind on 1 eye when he fought Ali.
Foreman was probably poisoned.
Cleveland Williams had destroyed intestines.
Archie Moore was 45+ years old.
Jimmy Young (34-19) was a bum.
Chuck Wepner was a bum (35-14)
Leon Spinks (26-17) was a bum.

Stop making excuses. If Wlad would fight such bums and handicaps then everybody would (and rightly so) call this a terrible era. But it was ALI who fought these fights.

Byrd was 36 years old at the time Wladimir knocked him out. When he was younger he survived the distance.

Of course he was KOed the second time around. After a first fight with Wlad they are never the same again.

Yes it's fair to use Liston, a greater fighter than anyone the Klitschko brothers ever beat, as proof of Ali's greatness.

OK, deal. Keep 6'0'' Liston and delete half-blind 5'11'' Frazier off Ali's record. That's fine with me.

Everyone knows that Sanders was only a part-time fighter at the time and focused on playing golf.

So what? Only proves that had he trained more he could have beaten Vitali. That he was also a golfer doesn't disprove any of his qualities as a boxer. Who cares what else Frazier or Liston were doing for their living.

Hey, since the life outside of the ring matters so much for you we can make another deal: Let's delete all the CRIMINALS off the top25, shall we? Joe Louis (tax evasion) has to go, as well as Tyson (****) and Liston (robbery). Maybe Ali (draft-dodging), too, but he was acquitted on a technicality so probably we could keep him on the list.

He was hardly in amazing shape against Wladimir, watch if you dare

He was in a good shape. Moreover what's this "Corrie Sanders fixation"? Noone doubts that Wlad was TKOed fair and square. It's a pity that Wlad's management refused a rematch.

Ali had 61 heavyweight fights

He did not. He had what-they-called-then heavyweight fights. Big difference. Having said that: Ali's P4P record is really good. As a heavyweight he is OK. Wlad within 7.

He had trouble with Peter. The video is the proof.

Yeah, and Peter had even greater trouble with Wlad. Stop bringing up this "Oh, but he struggled" argument.

Peter would have ruled over no one in the 70's. Anyone who has followed boxing can see that he has no skills, no speed, only strength and crude power but the average 250 lb man who hits the gym has that. Peter lacks the skill to compete with great boxers and his best wins are over old men like Maskaev and Toney.

Listen, I won't even go there because Sam Peter was just an example of mine. MANY of Klitschko's opponents could have ruled the 70ies: Calvin Brock and even Ibragimov. No matter how often I rewatch 70ies fights: The opponents do not impress me a bit, except in a few cases like Ken Norton or Foreman.

While Byrd put on 60 pounds to compete as a heavyweight, Frazier cut down 60 pounds.

Thank you for reminding us that 5'11'' 260 lbs Frazier was fat. Let me also remind everyone that fatty Ali was also put on drugs to lose approx. 40lbs for the Holmes fight.

Frazier was a natural heavyweight, Byrd as he claimed himself ate his way to the heavyweight division.

Lame excuse.
There is only 1 heavyweight division, not a "Athletic division" and a "Fatty division".

Foreman was one of the hardest punchers to ever live.

Yes, I give Foreman that. Him I give more chance against the current era than Ali. At least Foreman had some defense and punching power, unlike Ali.

Wladimir was put in his place by Sanders (nowhere near as good as Foreman) with a few shots, does this mean he can't punch?

And Foreman was knocked down by a bummy featherfist. You know exactly that SINGLE performances can be a fluke.

You're criticizing Ali for punching Frazier's head so many times until his eyes were so swollen up that he couldn't see?

No, I don't criticize Ali for that. But it has to be pointed out again and again that Frazier was handicapped.
While Sam Langford's blindness has been known prior to fights Frazier kept it a secret.

Don't make me laugh. You know he was far better, everyone knows he was.

I like Frazier more than Ali. At least Frazier is somewhat exciting to watch. Wlad within 4.

The only delusional one here is you and you know it. Pannell and Puritty are journeymen, Williamson was a china-chinned fringe contender, Brewster couldn't beat Etienne, Peter is a crude clubber.

By singling out fights (or even singling out some minutes) you can prove anything. You have to see the whole career performance.

Frazier is a top 10 all-time great heavyweight

Yeah, in YOUR list. And the list of deluded CLAYTONs calling themselves US boxing experts.
Frazier has a heavyweight record of 14-4. And the fights vs Foreman are the coffin nail for any aspiration of Frazier to be Top10. Frazier was good at beating cruisers.

Brewster and Chagaev are allowed to fight.

Sure why not? After an operation the retina may even sit tighter than in a natural condition.

Wladimir has fought men smaller than Frazier and in his last fight took on a man of similar stature than Frazier.

What the heck? Eddie chambers fights 1-2 heads taller than Frazier.

This rant is proof that you haven't. Ali was the fastest heavyweight to ever live, with solid power in both fists, fleet-footed, rarely if ever hit in his prime.

Uff, why should I argue with you if you obviously have FANTASY ALI in your mind that never existed.
The occasional flurries that Ali made are equally weak as Chris Byrd's (except that Byrd has a higher heavyweight KOratio than Ali): It's called "wind making".

And what is this nonsense about "Ali = fastest heavyweight ever lived"? Even Eddie Chambers is much faster than Ali. If Ali was so fast then why was he hit CONSTANTLY by even slowest punches. Just watch Ali vs Folley: In every round Ali he gets cleanly hit by Foley. No defence whatsoever:



Add to it Ali's disgusting neck-grabbing ("Dirty Clay"), clowning (= "flotaing") and krumping (= wiggling the hands in the air) and it makes you wonder whether CLAYtons are completely brainwashed to find this attractive or even competitive nowadays.

Ali's hands hang down all the time as if somebody would pull them down. I URGE EVERYONE to watch this video that TheGreatA posted.

Ali was lucky that Folley's performance was even worse. I guess this is because Folley was boxing as a cruiser (not in this fight though) most of his fights (Zora had only 17 real heavyweight fights in his career of which he lost 5 including this one).

What a crappy era, what a crappy fight. And you made me suffer through it again.

With such a bad defense Ali would get KOed pretty fast nowadays, even after the knockdown Zora has no problems to hit Ali nearly at will.

[knn]

Wladimir doesn't exactly look like gold in every fight of his either, see Wladimir-Ibragimov.

Wlad looked good in that fight although I understand why some might consider it boring. Wlad won every round.

Young was not a "feather-fist bum", he was top 10 ranked in the division

That a bum like Jimmy Young (34-19 career, 19% KORatio) was top10 ranked is another proof of how bad Ali's era was.

and a brilliant boxer to watch on film.

I agree, Ali was so bad that he makes bums like Young (34-19) look good. Wlad is so good that he makes good boxers like Byrd look like bums.

Take for example this above fight. Wlad would have probably finished Folley in 1 round without even getting hit once. And everybody would shout "Wlad fights bums!".

Ali didn't have Parkinson's at the time he fought Spinks.

The final diagnosis came later but the illness started already early.

The 6-0 bum happened to be an Olympic gold medalist.

Who cares? Olympic boxing is different than pro heavyweight. Leon Spinks was and stays a bum (26-17). That is how crappy the 70ies were.

If in the future the cruiserweight division limit is 215 lbs, will you no longer give Wladimir Klitschko credit for winning the heavyweight title twice because he won it from Chris Byrd?

If they define a superheavyweight division (215+), then Wlad's win over Byrd OF COURSE will not be considered a superheavyweight win. It's OBVIOUS. The major idiocy was that they gave the heavyweight division NEW LIMITS but OLD NAME ("heavyweight") although it was suddenly a completely new division. That way fans until very day think that Marciano could beat Wlad because, hey, he was a "heavyweight".

You know exactly that Wlad should not be able to line up 20 oldtime cruisers (175+) and add those wins to his heavyweight record. But this is exactly what CLAYtons and MARCIANOnanists do.

[knn]

I m not a Klitschko hater! Anyway i faked not results: Frazier was stopped second time by Foreman after his 32 birthday and same Schmeling by Joe Louis...

Oh, now you are telling us that after your 32nd birthday you are not 32 anymore. Re-Read what you are claiming there.

So, cause u interest so much win against gianats, how do u should rank little Jack Dempsey, whose best fights were against giants (Firpo, Fulton, Willard)?

Dempsey was a good cruiser with a few good heavyweight wins. He does not belong on the same list as Lewis, Tyson or Klitschko.

[knn]

Just look at the videos GreatA posted.

Ali and Folley both look in top shape.

Pter and McCline look like bloated slugs.

What's this obsession with fat?

This is the "heavyweight division" not the "Women's drool division". Fat protects and if you want to see proportional bodies watch the number girls.

It MATTERS what weight somebody had FOR THE FIGHT, not whether he is a "natural cruiser". I already posted above that if we delete "natural cruisers" off the list then Ali's career record stands at 12-1.

[TheGreatA]

Nonsense, how can he claim in his newest book that he was poisoned yet lost fairly? No, he said he would have lost without poisoning, too. Big difference. And merely a speculation on Foreman's part.

"George Foreman conducted an interview with ESPN's Brian Kenny this evening, and although he didn't back down from his claims that he was drugged in his loss to Muhammad Ali in the Rumble in the Jungle, he also said the sabotage is not the reason Ali beat him.


When Kenny told Foreman that Foreman's claims of his water bottle being were tantamount to saying one of the greatest sporting events in history was fixed, Foreman replied, "No, it wasn't fixed. I got beat fair and square."

Foreman's claims are completely nonsensical. At one point in the interview with Kenny he said, "It was years before I got my health back together after that fight." So how did he win all four of his fights over the next two years?

Foreman also of the water he was given just before the fight, "Maybe it's just a phantom drink of water, maybe it didn't happen at all, but I tasted medicine."

Maybe it didn't happen at all? Yeah, I think that's the most likely explanation."

SO WHAT? They weren't detached during the fight with Klitschko. They had 100% vision. Stop twisting facts. Frazier was blind on 1 eye.

His ex-manager Taymas Niyazov (48) claims that Chagaev is almost blind in his left eye and there was a myopia of -7 diopters. He can see allegedly left with only extremely blurred. Hard to imagine that the Uzbek Sun A flying rights of the opponent also can only guess.

Reason for the low vision is a retinal detachment, was operated on because of the already Chagaev in October 2001. And the state should - it is claimed - worse!

Ex-Manager Niyazov said on 14th March 2008 a letter (available PICTURE) to Chagaevs boxing universe, Association WBA, promoter Sauerland and the transferring station ZDF: "I have more information from various sources, that the sight Chagaevs after the last fight (on 19.1. To Skelton, editor's) has worsened dramatically. "

http://www.bild.de/BILD/sport/mehr-sport/boxen/2008/05/07/giganten-kampf-abgesagt/sieht-chagaev-den-russen-riesen-so,geo=4463130.html

About Brewster:

"It's not hard to find out if a fighter is on medical suspension. It's right on the Internet. But last year alone, there were 24 violations by our own member commissions that I know of. And then you have a fighter like Lamon Brewster, who's on medical suspension. He goes over to Germany and fights for a world title, still on suspension, and HBO televises it. What kind of message does that send?"

http://sports.espn.go.com/sports/boxing/news/story?id=3032059

Yes, after a messed up eye operation followed by an eye stroke. That you even bring up these fighters to make the win against Frazier look more normal is ridiculous.

It's not ridiculous, they're basically the same thing. By the way one of the greatest of all time Harry Greb was completely blind out of one eye, would you not give Gene Tunney any credit for beating him?

Frazier was HANDICAPPED = blind on 1 eye when he fought Ali.
Foreman was probably poisoned.
Cleveland Williams had destroyed intestines.
Archie Moore was 45+ years old.
Jimmy Young (34-19) was a bum.
Chuck Wepner was a bum (35-14)
Leon Spinks (26-17) was a bum.

Foreman was "probably" poisoned. There's no legitimate proof of this, even he himself states that he "may" have been poisoned, which is about as reliable as Holyfield saying that he didn't perform well because the ring was too springy.

You claim Jimmy Young was a bum, which again shows you know very little about boxing. Without him, there wouldn't have been Chris Byrd or Eddie Chambers.

Stop making excuses. If Wlad would fight such bums and handicaps then everybody would (and rightly so) call this a terrible era. But it was ALI who fought these fights.

This is what I should be telling to you.

I'm not the one taking away credit from Wladimir because his opponents may or may not have been 100% at the time they fought him. You're the one doing this to Ali, and I'm showing that it could very well be done to Wladimir too.

Of course he was KOed the second time around. After a first fight with Wlad they are never the same again.

Ridiculous. Byrd went onto have the 6 year prime of his career after losing to Klitschko and was on the way down at the time they fought again.

OK, deal. Keep 6'0'' Liston and delete half-blind 5'11'' Frazier off Ali's record. That's fine with me.

How about we keep both because both were great victories, greater than any on Wladimir's record unfortunately.

So what? Only proves that had he trained more he could have beaten Vitali. That he was also a golfer doesn't disprove any of his qualities as a boxer. Who cares what else Frazier or Liston were doing for their living.

Whatever else Frazier or Liston did for a living did not hinder their performances on the ring. Sanders was a golfer first, boxer second. He had only fought 3 rounds in 3 years against 2 journeymen previous to taking on Wladimir. That's hardly an active contender.

Hey, since the life outside of the ring matters so much for you we can make another deal: Let's delete all the CRIMINALS off the top25, shall we? Joe Louis (tax evasion) has to go, as well as Tyson (****) and Liston (robbery). Probably Ali (draft-dodging), too, but he was acquitted on a technicality so probably we could keep him on the list.

I don't see how this has anything to do with what I've said. Sanders was only a part-time fighter and did not dedicate himself fully to boxing, unlike Wladimir for example, yet he was still able to win. Imagine if he had been in prime condition and dedicated for his whole career.

He was in a good shape. Moreover what's this "Corrie Sanders fixation"? Noone doubts that Wlad was TKOed fair and square. It's a pity that Wlad's management refused a rematch.

He was not in peak condition at 37 years of age.

I agree with the bolded part. Since you like to bring up Ali not giving a rematch to Foreman, whom he beat, why not bring up Wladimir not giving a rematch to Sanders, whom he lost to?

He did not. He had what-they-called-then heavyweight fights. Big difference. Having said that: Ali's P4P record is really good. As a heavyweight he is OK. Wlad within 7.

He had heavyweight fights, simple as that. No one will discount Wladimir's wins over Byrd or Chambers either if the cruiserweight division weight limit becomes 215 lbs in the future. That would be just silly.

By the same logic Gamboa's recent fight against Rogers Mtagwa wasn't a featherweight fight because Mtagwa only weighed 122 pounds, which is the super bantamweight limit.

You could also say that since Henry Armstrong only weighed 140 pounds, his accomplishments at welterweight shouldn't be taken to account because he was only a light welterweight himself.

Yeah, and Peter had even greater trouble with Wlad. Stop bringing up this "Oh, but he struggled" argument.

Heavyweights are not supposed to struggle with middleweights. The 250 pound Peter could barely beat Toney the first time, yet you're here saying that only size seems to matter and nothing else.

Listen, I won't even go there because Sam Peter was just an example of mine. MANY of Klitschko's opponents could have ruled the 70ies: Calvin Brock and even Ibragimov. No matter how often I rewatch 70ies fights: The opponents do not impress me a bit, except in a few cases like Ken Norton or Foreman.

Calvin Brock? Are we talking about the same Calvin Brock here? This Calvin Brock?



I don't see any qualities about him that show he could have been the champion in the 1970's. Did he ever beat anyone of note? Zuri "0 KO's" Lawrence doesn't count.

Sultan Ibragimov was a good fighter who showed that skills win over size against Briggs. He also went the distance with Wladimir. He may be a bit better than Mildenberger.

Thank you for reminding us that 5'11'' 260 lbs Frazier was fat. Let me also remind everyone that fatty Ali was also put on drugs to lose approx. 40lbs for the Holmes fight.

Yes he was fat at 260 lbs. However unlike the majority of today's heavyweights like Peter and Arreola, atleast he didn't stay fat at the day of the fight. He would go down to a lean 205 lbs. Ali too went down to a ripped 210-220 lbs. These were professionals who took their job seriously.

Frazier showing what he would do to many of today's slobs:

[IMG]http://img.***********.com/albums/v309/TheManchine/Muut%20kuvat/joefraziermathis.jpg[/IMG]

Lame excuse.
There is only 1 heavyweight division, not a "Athletic division" and a "Fatty division".

Kelly Pavlik could eat his way to 220 lbs, would you call him a naturally bigger man than Frazier? James Toney was "bigger" than Frazier at nearly 240 lbs of flab, is he a naturally bigger man than Frazier? The only way Frazier could have ever made 160 is if he were to cut off an arm or a leg.

[TheGreatA]

Yes, I give Foreman that. Him I give more chance against the current era than Ali. At least Foreman had some defense and punching power, unlike Ali.

Yes, George Foreman of all people had better defense than Ali. Who are you kidding?

And Foreman was knocked down by a bummy featherfist. You know exactly that SINGLE performances can be a fluke.

Wladimir has been knocked down more than 10 times. In that case it's no longer a "fluke". He just doesn't have the best chin, and Sanders was able to exploit that. I also don't think Young's win over Foreman was a "fluke". Young was a terrific boxer, although I didn't think the knockdown was legit as the right hand actually missed.

No, I don't criticize Ali for that. But it has to be pointed out again and again that Frazier was handicapped.
While Sam Langford's blindness has been known prior to fights Frazier kept it a secret.

Frazier's "handicap" didn't prevent him from being a great fighter. Ali was also not allowed to box for 3 years, that's quite a handicap.

I like Frazier more than Ali. At least Frazier is somewhat exciting to watch. Wlad within 4.

How many fighters has Wladimir recently knocked out within 4? Ray Austin? Regardless of what you think would happen in a fantasy fight, Wladimir has never beaten a man as accomplished as Joe Frazier.

By singling out fights (or even singling out some minutes) you can prove anything. You have to see the whole career performance.

I'd say that Joe Frazier proved he could punch during his whole career, if not as hard as George Foreman could. Also it's not valid to say that because a fighter was knocked out by another fighter, it's proof that he couldn't punch. Foreman knocking out Frazier has nothing to do with Frazier not being able to punch.

Yeah, in YOUR list. And the list of deluded CLAYTONs calling themselves US boxing experts.
Frazier has a heavyweight record of 14-4. And the fights vs Foreman are the coffin nail for any aspiration of Frazier to be Top10. Frazier was good at beating cruisers.

I'm not American nor am I a huge Ali fan. However you're not only trying to discredit the record of Ali, you're trying to discredit the records of every heavyweight that existed previous to the Klitschko brothers by saying that they weren't "real" heavyweights. They were real heavyweights and that's all there is to it.

Sure why not? After an operation the retina may even sit tighter than in a natural condition.

They are allowed to fight outside the US. However they still have vision problems and were not 100% at the time they faced Wladimir. I still don't take any credit away from Wladimir for beating them, but you should, since you take away credit from Ali for every win he ever achieved.

What the heck? Eddie chambers fights 1-2 heads taller than Frazier.

Prime Joe Frazier 5'11, 205-210 pounds.
Eddie Chambers 6'0-6'1, 209 pounds.

They're of similar stature. Stylistically they're different. I'd say that Frazier's style is better for dealing with a taller man than Chambers's, as Chambers relies on his reach while Frazier relies on being able to take his opponent apart on the inside.

Uff, why should I argue with you if you obviously have FANTASY ALI in your mind that never existed.
The occasional flurries that Ali made are equally weak as Chris Byrd's (except that Byrd has a higher heavyweight KOratio than Ali): It's called "wind making".

And what is this nonsense about "Ali = fastest heavyweight ever lived"? Even Eddie Chambers is much faster than Ali. If Ali was so fast then why was he hit CONSTANTLY by even slowest punches. Just watch Ali vs Folley: In every round Ali he gets cleanly hit by Foley. No defence whatsoever:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFFDe9FQL3s

Add to it Ali's disgusting neck-grabbing ("Dirty Clay"), clowning (= "flotaing") and krumping (= wiggling the hands in the air) and it makes you wonder whether CLAYtons are completely brainwashed to find this attractive or even competitive nowadays.

Ali's hands hang down all the time as if somebody would pull them down. I URGE EVERYONE to watch this video that TheGreatA posted.

Ali was lucky that Folley's performance was even worse. I guess this is because Folley was boxing as a cruiser (not in this fight though) most of his fights (Zora had only 17 real heavyweight fights in his career of which he lost 5 including this one).

What a crappy era, what a crappy fight. And you made me suffer through it again.

With such a bad defense Ali would get KOed pretty fast nowadays, even after the knockdown Zora has no problems to hit Ali nearly at will.

Ali being the fastest was proven by Jim Jacobs:


4:40

His speed on display against one of the fastest boxers ever Floyd Patterson:



Ali had no defense?


6:50

"Feather-fisted" Ali the only man to knock out granite-jawed Bonavena: