The lineal HW title. A fart in the wind.

[kafkod]

This isn't the first time a lineage has been disputed. It happens a lot when a long lineage ends with a retirement or a guy leaving the weight class. But ultimately the debate was settled in the ring and now it's just a trivia question.

One such big debate was Joe Louis. He retired in 1949, and then unretired. He was retired for less time than Fury. So there was a debate going into the Joe Louis vs Ezzard Charles fight as to whether Louis was defending his lineal crown or whether he and Charles were contesting the vacant lineage.

Ultimately, most people settled on Charles beginning a new lineage..

This speaks to the reason why I started this thread, which was to push back against a vociferous clique of boxing history "experts" who were insisting that "the lineal" was the only title in boxing that actually mattered, and that it was the antidote to all the controversy and confusion caused by multiple sanctioning bodies.

According to that view, we, as fans, should stop recognising alphabet belts and recognise only the lineal title, because man-who-beat-the-man lineage s the only objective way to decide who the real HW champion is.

Great idea, but in the real world, multiple sanctioning bodies made it impossible to use man-who-beat-the-man lineage objectively, which is why Ring Magazine gave up trying and retired their lineal title belt back in the 1990s.

[Willow The Wisp]

According to that view, we, as fans, should stop recognising alphabet belts and recognise only the lineal title, because man-who-beat-the-man lineage s the only objective way to decide who the real HW champion is.

You catch on quick.

[Willow The Wisp]

Why does this thread even exist?

[famicommander]

Why does this thread even exist?

Because kafkod can't understand the concept.

Me saying the true lineage goes
Klitschko --> Fury --> vacant (retirement) --> Fury (from the Wilder II win) --> vacant (retirement) --> Usyk (from the Joshua II win)

Has broken his brain entirely.

[kafkod]

You catch on quick.

Can't say the same about you.

[kafkod]

Why does this thread even exist?

I explained why I started this thread in my previous comment.. My explanation obviously went right over your head. Unlike me, you don't catch on quick. In fact, you don't catch on at all.

[kafkod]

You're missing a piece. Check the precedent set by the retirements of Jeffries, Tunney, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Ali x 2, Lewis and Klitschko. It's Boxing History 101 class.

I'm pretty sure their lineal title reigns all ended when they retired. Are you saying something different?

[kafkod]

Because kafkod can't understand the concept.

Me saying the true lineage goes
Klitschko --> Fury --> vacant (retirement) --> Fury (from the Wilder II win) --> vacant (retirement) --> Usyk (from the Joshua II win)

Has broken his brain entirely.

I fully understand the concept and nothing I read at this place is going to break my brain.

But my mind was blown to discover that BoxRec can't even agree with itself about when Usyk's lineal championship reign began. They have Usyk vs AJ 2 as a vacant lineal title fight, but their version of the lineage has Usyk becoming lineal champ by beating Fury in 2024: https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Li...eight_Champion

It's also mind blowing to discover that TBRB - allegedly the most prestigious ratings panel on the planet - are peddling a version of the HW lineage which is different than the one accepted by BoxRec, linealboxingchampion.com, ESPN, Cyber Boxing Zone, BoxingScene, and the boxing industry as a whole, who all recognised Fury as lineal champ until he lost to Usyk::

https://www.linealboxingchampion.com/the-history-of-the-lineal-heavyweight-championship-boxing-heavyweight-champions

https://boxing.fandom.com/wiki/List_...ns#Heavyweight

https://www.espn.co.uk/boxing/story/...boxing-history

https://www.boxingscene.com/articles...hampion-part-i

[SouthpawRight]

Tyson Fury might be a great heavyweight but he isn’t all time great is what

and he dropped the ball against a mma

[Willow The Wisp]

I fully understand the concept and nothing I read at this place is going to break my brain.

But my mind was blown to discover that BoxRec can't even agree with itself about when Usyk's lineal championship reign began. They have Usyk vs AJ 2 as a vacant lineal title fight, but their version of the lineage has Usyk becoming lineal champ by beating Fury in 2024: https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Li...eight_Champion

It's also mind blowing to discover that TBRB - allegedly the most prestigious ratings panel on the planet - are peddling a version of the HW lineage which is different than the one accepted by BoxRec, linealboxingchampion.com, ESPN, Cyber Boxing Zone, BoxingScene, and the boxing industry as a whole, who all recognised Fury as lineal champ until he lost to Usyk::

https://www.linealboxingchampion.com/the-history-of-the-lineal-heavyweight-championship-boxing-heavyweight-champions

https://boxing.fandom.com/wiki/List_...ns#Heavyweight

https://www.espn.co.uk/boxing/story/...boxing-history

https://www.boxingscene.com/articles...hampion-part-i

You are not alone in being confused my friend. The Title Sanctioning Bodies have worked diligently since the mid 1970's to confound you, and in so doing establish their meaning, and cause for existence, with high******* the flagship weight class as their most stubborn objective.

This is due to THAT particular division alone having a crystal clear liniage.


See if this helps:

Each of the 9 incorporated boxing sanctioning bodies (5 currently being "acknowledged" in the Media/Blogger community in English speaking countries); are notorious and sometimes even felonious; and perfectly irrelevant at heavyweight, where the title liniage is universally acknowledged and uncontested amongst boxing's historians.

The so-called "world title sanctioning body" companies can sell their belts to whatever promotional companies they please, and those belts can land around the waist of any contender, fringe contender or non-contender in the world (as they frequently do), with no effect on the Heavyweight Championship of the World.

The WBC, WBA, IBF, WBO, WBU, etc, are strictly self-appointed, and mean little at the Heavyweight/Open division.


You want the one real title? Beat Usyk, or wait for him to retire.

Regarding the latter choice:

THE Historical Precedent states that, should Usyk come back after a retirement announcement, he retains the linear claim for up to 48 months should he return to action, but only if he fights one of the top 2 acknowledged new title claimants on the scene, within 3 fights of his return; and wins; will he retain the title and be recognized as the champion in recess for the duration of his absence; thus nullifying any conflicting title claims made during that period for the linial title (Fury). However, should he lose the fight against the new title claimant, his reign as champion will be regarded as having concluded upon his initial retirement announcement (Louis, Ali, Ali 2). Should the sitting champion retire and remain retired for greater than 48 months before announcing and fulfilling a return to the ring, his claim to the title will no longer be valid, and in a title bout arranged during a return to action, he will be listed as the challenger for the title he once held (Jeffries).


Aborted retirements while holding the crown - Duration of retirements from official announcement to comeback fight:

Jeffries.......05/05 - 07/10....62 months
Louis...........03/49 - 09/50....18 months
Ali................04/67 - 10/70....42 months
Ali 2.............07/79 - 10/80....15 months
Fury.............10/16 - 06/18....20 months


Tunney, Marciano and Lewis are the only modern era heavyweight champions to have successfully retired as champion and not come back. Each of these had relinquished any claim as champion, therefore, at the point of their retirement.


In each of the three instances of that, the new champion in the historic line was established by a protracted process in which ALL bonified contenders were sorted by results in the ring, leading to a reestablished world champion who solitified that claim by attrition through either continued success or losing to a better challenger to replace him, ensuring that the best in the world became champion only through actions in the ring; beyond the corruption of opinion or agenda.

None of those events were challenged by the public, the press or the industry itself; and each employed a universally accepted means by which title continuity was irrefutably mended to the satisfaction of all.

If you don't buy into this, as being both a logical and the one true process for the establishment of determining the world heavyweight boxing champion, I cannot assist you, and I zealously encourage you to follow any path you like!

Hopefully, that would not be to place your trust in the hand of the aforementioned sanctioning body companies; who presently list, as legitimate contenders for their "titles", the likes of:


IBF
13. Peter Kadiru (KOd in first climb up by 23-11 Marcos Antonio Aumada).

WBA
9. Dainier Pero (The younger brother of Lenier).

14.Yoandy Toirac (Just 3-0 but he's matching tough).

WBO
14. Vladyslav Sirenko (Just dropped a nod to Solomon Dacres)

15. Johnny Fisher (Lost rematch to David Allen)