The lineal HW title. A fart in the wind.

[Willow The Wisp]

"Coming off a loss" - those words get presented as though they're some kind of definitive decider. Boxers lose sometimes. Wlad was a very clear #1 before the defeat to Fury. He remained #2 to Fury afterwards until Fury retired.

He didn't fight for 18 months but that wasn't exactly straight inactivity or contemplation of retirement. He was in camp for a #1 v #2 fight untill Fury finally dropped away in retirement/disgrace. Then they made the fight against the highest ranked guy possible - Joshua. They were clearly the two best at that time. For what it's worth, TBRB ranked Wlad at #2 to Joshua's #1 immediately after they fought.

In any case it really doesn't matter. The point is that there were multiple claims to the lineage because no-one had established their claim beyond any doubt. Until Usyk beat Fury. Prior to that is one of those grey areas that have existed many times in the history of boxing, only to be cleared up by a single champion. People might rewrite that history and claim precedents but none exist and there's no-one to adjudicate them. We all know what the man looks like once he's become the man.

To be honest, it was Fury and ESPN's marketing that even made this an issue. He had no right to claim that status, and even less right to devalue it with the fights he apparently defended it in. If his claims were true then the lineal championship was worthless.

He claims to be a boxing historian but he's actually exactly what he appears to be - a gypsy conman.

This argument is predicated on one, single question. Did Tyson Fury win against Wladimir Klitschko, or did he not?

Beyond that question; the post is comprised of pychobabel.

Joshua certainly had no claim to anything not made of plastic for having beaten the aged, inactive, unranked and titless Klitschko.

As far as bold claims regarding the existence of an historical precident, dancing around the relationship between precedent and adjudication; or inventing "multiple claims" to the title liniage when there simply were not, well; I Don't wish to be harsh.

Believe as you wish. That is a problem for nobody.

[Willow The Wisp]

I have no issue with Wlad's claim.

Furry claimed the status when he returned from retirement and drug related bans. He used it as a marketing tool because he didn't have a title. Again, if lineal is worth anything, then surely it doesn't continue through drugs bans and retirements.

Fury has tried to rewrite that history as a mental health break. No, he got done for Nandrolone and it's dodgy as hell that his fight with Klitschko wasn't written off. He should have been banned for that fight, not retrospectively banned for one night against Hammer and then later after his title win.

In any case. Usyk restored order. Everything from Klitschko to Usyk is grey.

Grey in your mind alone.

[Toffee]

Grey in your mind alone.

There are entire threads dedicated to discussion regarding who was the lineal champion from the point of Fury's ban and retirement to the first Fury v Usyk fight.

You seem to think that the fact that you have a definitive belief in a set of rules must mean that you're right. Lineal is full of grey areas.

If you truly believe that lineal remained with Fury, then you truly believe that the lineal champion can be banned for Nandrolone, can retire, can blow up to 300 pounds, can defend the status against Pianeta and Seferi. If all of that is true then I don't know why we're even talking about it - it would be more pointless than a "Regular" title.

[kafkod]

"Coming off a loss" - those words get presented as though they're some kind of definitive decider. Boxers lose sometimes. Wlad was a very clear #1 before the defeat to Fury. He remained #2 to Fury afterwards until Fury retired.

He didn't fight for 18 months but that wasn't exactly straight inactivity or contemplation of retirement. He was in camp for a #1 v #2 fight untill Fury finally dropped away in retirement/disgrace. Then they made the fight against the highest ranked guy possible - Joshua. They were clearly the two best at that time. For what it's worth, TBRB ranked Wlad at #2 to Joshua's #1 immediately after they fought.

In any case it really doesn't matter. The point is that there were multiple claims to the lineage because no-one had established their claim beyond any doubt. Until Usyk beat Fury. Prior to that is one of those grey areas that have existed many times in the history of boxing, only to be cleared up by a single champion. People might rewrite that history and claim precedents but none exist and there's no-one to adjudicate them. We all know what the man looks like once he's become the man.

To be honest, it was Fury and ESPN's marketing that even made this an issue. He had no right to claim that status, and even less right to devalue it with the fights he apparently defended it in. If his claims were true then the lineal championship was worthless.

He claims to be a boxing historian but he's actually exactly what he appears to be - a gypsy conman.

To the best of my knowledge, Tyson Fury is the only man who has laid claim to the lineal title since Lewis retired. I never heard Wlad claiming to be lineal champ, and Usyk laughed off the lineage as "Tyson Fury's bullshit" when he was asked about it.

Personally, I didn't know that Wlad was supposed to be the lineal champion till Fury started trumpeting about it after they signed to fight. And, given that there is no clear consensus on when Wlad actually became lineal, I wonder if he knew anything about it himself before that.

[kafkod]

It's not dodgy at all, he didn't test positive for the Wlad fight.

What's dodgy is how the results from the Hamer fight only became an Issue a year later once Fury gained a public platform and started talking out about the J's

15 months later, to be precise. That was definitely very suspect. It makes you wonder ... did UKAD brush a genuine possessive test result under the carpet, or did they cook up a fake one to take Fury down when he started making a nuisance of himself in the mainstream media.