The lineal HW title. A fart in the wind.

[kafkod]

I never said the Ring determined the lineal title. I said that, when vacant, the lineal championship is determined by a fight between the consensus top 2 fighters in the division. So to determine who the consensus top two are, you look at all the independent sources that rank fighters. When they all agree on a top two and there is no active lineage, that's how you get a new champion.

At the time of Wilder vs Fury II, every independent source including the TBRB, Ring, and ESPN had those two as the top two heavyweights. Thus, a new lineage.

At the time of Joshua vs Usyk II, every independent source had those two as the top two heavyweights. Thus, a new lineage.

Some people didn't recognize Fury's second retirement, so some people didn't recognize Joshua vs Usyk II as a lineal fight. But since Usyk went onto beat Fury anyway, the disagreement is solved.

It would really help your case if you demonstrated the slightest amount of reading comprehension.

The BoxRec listing for Usyk vs Joshua II lists it as a vacant lineal fight:
https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Ol..._(2nd_meeting)


The TBRB succession page lists it as establishing a new lineage:
https://tbrb.org/successions

This isn't something I just made up. The only people who didn't consider it a lineal title fight are the people who didn't believe Fury when he said he was retiring again.

"At the time of Wilder vs Fury II, every independent source including the TBRB, Ring, and ESPN had those two as the top two heavyweights. Thus, a new lineage."

No, they did not. And that's not how lineage works anyway.

The truth is that Fury vs Wilder was advertised and sold as a WBC and lineal title unification fight. And Fury was billed and introduced as the reigning lineal champion before the fight even started. Did you not watch it, or follow any of the build up?


"The BoxRec listing for Usyk vs Joshua II lists it as a vacant lineal fight:"

A vacant lineal title fight!? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? And even if it made any logical sense, who gave BoxRec the authority to award lineal titles to anybody?

There was a lot of argument and disagreement back then about whether Fury's lineal championship claim was legit, but nobody - and I mean literally nobody - ever said anything about the winner of Usyk vs AJ being the lineal champ.

[famicommander]

"At the time of Wilder vs Fury II, every independent source including the TBRB, Ring, and ESPN had those two as the top two heavyweights. Thus, a new lineage."

No, they did not. And that's not how lineage works anyway.

The truth is that Fury vs Wilder was advertised and sold as a WBC and lineal title unification fight. And Fury was billed and introduced as the reigning lineal champion before the fight even started. Did you not watch it, or follow any of the build up?


"The BoxRec listing for Usyk vs Joshua II lists it as a vacant lineal fight:"

A vacant lineal title fight!? What the fuck is that supposed to mean? And even if it made any logical sense, who gave BoxRec the authority to award lineal titles to anybody?

There was a lot of argument and disagreement back then about whether Fury's lineal championship claim was legit, but nobody - and I mean literally nobody - ever said anything about the winner of Usyk vs AJ being the lineal champ.

You are staggeringly ignorant.

[kafkod]

You are staggeringly ignorant.

And you are the only so called boxing fan on this planet who believes that Usyk vs AJ was a lineal title fight and who doesn't know that Tyson Fury was billed and introduced as the defending lineal world champion going in to his first 2 fights with Wilder.

[famicommander]

And you are the only so called boxing fan on this planet who believes that Usyk vs AJ was a lineal title fight and who doesn't know that Tyson Fury was billed and introduced as the defending lineal world champion going in to his first 2 fights with Wilder.

Nobody cares how a fighter is billed or introduced. Those are promotional decisions, not official proclamations. Get a grip on reality.

And there was considerable discussion about Joshua vs Usyk being the lineal fight. It all came down to whether or not you believed Fury was really retired or not. We already discussed that the TBRB considered it the lineal fight, you already ignored that BoxRec regarded it as a lineal fight, now you say I'm the only fan who said it was.

Well here's a Reddit fan poll with 645 votes about whether or not Usyk vs Joshua II should be the lineal fight:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comm..._lineal_title/

"Yes" won with 404 votes.

Here's a BN24 discussion from before the fight saying that Fury's retirement makes it a lineal fight:
https://www.*************.com/thread...onship.690700/

Again, literally everyone on earth who accepted Fury's retirement considered Usyk vs Joshua II the legitimate lineal world championship fight, including the TBRB and the Ring.

It's the people who decided not to take Fury's retirement seriously that denied it was a lineal championship fight. And that group felt validated when Fury returned, but it doesn't change the reality of what took place.

[kafkod]

You are staggeringly ignorant.

BoxRec have Fury becoming lineal champ by beating Wlad Klitschko, NOT Wilder, like you claim, and they have Usyk becoming lineal champ by beating Fury, NOT by beating AJ, like you claim.

https://boxrec.com/wiki/index.php/Li...eight_Champion

Same thing here:

https://www.linealboxingchampion.com...ight-champions

Sorry, mate, but you have been talking rubbish in this thread.

[kafkod]

Nobody cares how a fighter is billed or introduced. Those are promotional decisions, not official proclamations. Get a grip on reality.

And there was considerable discussion about Joshua vs Usyk being the lineal fight. It all came down to whether or not you believed Fury was really retired or not. We already discussed that the TBRB considered it the lineal fight, you already ignored that BoxRec regarded it as a lineal fight, now you say I'm the only fan who said it was.

Well here's a Reddit fan poll with 645 votes about whether or not Usyk vs Joshua II should be the lineal fight:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Boxing/comm..._lineal_title/

"Yes" won with 404 votes.

Here's a BN24 discussion from before the fight saying that Fury's retirement makes it a lineal fight:
https://www.*************.com/thread...onship.690700/

Again, literally everyone on earth who accepted Fury's retirement considered Usyk vs Joshua II the legitimate lineal world championship fight, including the TBRB and the Ring.

It's the people who decided not to take Fury's retirement seriously that denied it was a lineal championship fight. And that group felt validated when Fury returned, but it doesn't change the reality of what took place.

Literally nobody but you considered Usyk vs AJ to be a lineal title fight, NOBODY.

[famicommander]

Literally nobody but you considered Usyk vs AJ to be a lineal title fight, NOBODY.

I just provided you evidence from before the fight took place that shows hundreds of fans on Reddit and BN24 considered it a lineal championship fight. There were topics here at the time with people debating the issue too.

The Transnational Boxing Rankings Board, the most credible source for rankings on the planet, considered it the championship fight.

Nobody, anywhere, took issue with the idea that Usyk and Joshua were the top two guys absent Fury. So everyone who took Fury's retirement at face value considered it the lineal fight, and everyone who decided to ignore Fury's retirement considered him to still be the champion.

This isn't the first time a lineage has been disputed. It happens a lot when a long lineage ends with a retirement or a guy leaving the weight class. But ultimately the debate was settled in the ring and now it's just a trivia question.

One such big debate was Joe Louis. He retired in 1949, and then unretired. He was retired for less time than Fury. So there was a debate going into the Joe Louis vs Ezzard Charles fight as to whether Louis was defending his lineal crown or whether he and Charles were contesting the vacant lineage.

Ultimately, most people settled on Charles beginning a new lineage.

So we apply that same standard to Ali vs Holmes, to Fury vs Wilder II, and to Joshua vs Usyk II.

It's the people who don't consider it a lineal fight that are being historically inconsistent. Treat Fury's retirements the same way we treated Ali's and Joe's.

[kafkod]

I just provided you evidence from before the fight took place that shows hundreds of fans on Reddit and BN24 considered it a lineal championship fight. There were topics here at the time with people debating the issue too.

The Transnational Boxing Rankings Board, the most credible source for rankings on the planet, considered it the championship fight.

Nobody, anywhere, took issue with the idea that Usyk and Joshua were the top two guys absent Fury. So everyone who took Fury's retirement at face value considered it the lineal fight, and everyone who decided to ignore Fury's retirement considered him to still be the champion.

This isn't the first time a lineage has been disputed. It happens a lot when a long lineage ends with a retirement or a guy leaving the weight class. But ultimately the debate was settled in the ring and now it's just a trivia question.

One such big debate was Joe Louis. He retired in 1949, and then unretired. He was retired for less time than Fury. So there was a debate going into the Joe Louis vs Ezzard Charles fight as to whether Louis was defending his lineal crown or whether he and Charles were contesting the vacant lineage.

Ultimately, most people settled on Charles beginning a new lineage.

So we apply that same standard to Ali vs Holmes, to Fury vs Wilder II, and to Joshua vs Usyk II.

It's the people who don't consider it a lineal fight that are being historically inconsistent. Treat Fury's retirements the same way we treated Ali's and Joe's.

You need to make your mind up whose version of the lineage you are running with here. Is it BoxRec or is it TBRB? Or is it ESPN, or maybe fans chatting rubbish on Reddit?

The only thing you are proving here is that - like I keep saying - there is no such thing as a lineal title and many different versions of the lineage. The whole concept is nothing but a confusing mess of conflicting opinions.

[kafkod]

I just provided you evidence from before the fight took place that shows hundreds of fans on Reddit and BN24 considered it a lineal championship fight. There were topics here at the time with people debating the issue too.

The Transnational Boxing Rankings Board, the most credible source for rankings on the planet, considered it the championship fight.

Nobody, anywhere, took issue with the idea that Usyk and Joshua were the top two guys absent Fury. So everyone who took Fury's retirement at face value considered it the lineal fight, and everyone who decided to ignore Fury's retirement considered him to still be the champion.

This isn't the first time a lineage has been disputed. It happens a lot when a long lineage ends with a retirement or a guy leaving the weight class. But ultimately the debate was settled in the ring and now it's just a trivia question.

One such big debate was Joe Louis. He retired in 1949, and then unretired. He was retired for less time than Fury. So there was a debate going into the Joe Louis vs Ezzard Charles fight as to whether Louis was defending his lineal crown or whether he and Charles were contesting the vacant lineage.

Ultimately, most people settled on Charles beginning a new lineage.

So we apply that same standard to Ali vs Holmes, to Fury vs Wilder II, and to Joshua vs Usyk II.

It's the people who don't consider it a lineal fight that are being historically inconsistent. Treat Fury's retirements the same way we treated Ali's and Joe's.

"The Transnational Boxing Rankings Board, the most credible source for rankings on the planet,"

Says who?

[Willow The Wisp]

"Until he loses or retires"

Good, so we're agreed then that Fury was no longer the lineal champion after he came back from retirement.

You're missing a piece. Check the precedent set by the retirements of Jeffries, Tunney, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Ali x 2, Lewis and Klitschko. It's Boxing History 101 class.